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Lisbon – A Step Forward
Read more about: Feature Gallery, Lisbon Treaty 
In Evert’s recent post on the Lisbon Treaty he finished on a point that jarred me. He ended the post with the following
There is no (real) need to expand the powers of the EU government and limit those of the individual national governments.
Now nothing in the EU limits the work of the national governments. Nothing in Europe can be done without our Minister raising his or her arm at that meeting in Brussels and agreeing to it.
On the issue of the voting in the Ministers meetings, in 2007 the Council made 508 decisions on EU regulations. Of those 425 could have been taken under the Qualified Majority Voting procedure, but only 37 were. This speaks volumes on how the EU works. It works by consensus among the member states. Lisbon won’t change that.
What the Treaty actual does is increase and define is the areas that the EU can take actions in with the agreement of the Member states and the European Parliament. There are 25 areas in which the EU can play a role. Of those only five are exclusive powers of the EU. That means in most areas national governments and parliaments have most of the powers. The five areas are: customs union, the establishing of the competition rules necessary for the functioning of the internal market, monetary policy for the member states whose currency is the euro, the conservation of marine biological resources under the common fisheries policy and lastly, common commercial policy. Even in those five areas though, it is the ministers responsible who are agreeing to the laws at the EU level, Europe is not imposing them on us.
The Treaty will also give an enhanced role to national parliaments which in some countries play a strong role (Denmark) and in others not so strong (Germany, UK). Under this procedure, our TDs and Senators will be able to voice concerns about proposed regulations and have them changed or abandoned. This gives an additional way for our politicians to influence Europe.
Also under the Treaty of Lisbon we will have a direct input into the EU. Under the Treaty a citizens initiative procedure will be brought in. This means that if an initiative can gain 1 million signatures, from the 500 million that make up the EU, the Commission will have to act on the proposal.
So if on October 2nd we vote Yes we will not be “Bending Over” we will be taking a step forward with the rest of Europe, strengthen Ireland’s position and giving us more say in Europe.
Nice post, but I wouldn’t get too hot about the Citizen’s Initiative. It requires the Commission to discuss the proposal, not to act on it. Indeed, if it did require the Commission to act on it, it’d be a very bad idea indeed, since I imagine you could gather 1/500 million signatures across Europe for some very strange causes…
They have to act on it, as in discuss it and issue a response. Positive or negative.
oh and of course the commissions response if positive will have to be agreed in the normal route and respect the principle of subsidarity.
“Nothing in Europe can be done without our Minister raising his or her arm at that meeting in Brussels and agreeing to it.”
That’s not true, and that is what the discussion about what areas should or should not be brought into qualified majority voting (in the Council) and cosultation or co-decision (with the Parliament) is all about.
But tipster as I pointed out. The majority of decisions are not taken by QMV. They never will be. The EU works best by consensus and will continue to be run as so.
I welcome the Lisbon Treaty’s provision for Citizen’s Initiative, which is very limited.
‘The European Parliament and the Council, acting by means of regulations in accordance with the ordinary legislative procedure, shall adopt the provisions for the procedures and conditions required for a citizens’ initiative within the meaning of Article 8 B of the Treaty on European
Union, including the minimum number of Member States from which such citizens must come.’ (Treaty of Lisbon, Article 2F. 37 on page 53 of the EU Journal)
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2007:306:0042:0133:EN:PDF
Note that this article does not lay down any time-scale by which
1) The Commission, as the sole originator of legislation in the EU system, must produce a proposal to implement this article ie “in accordance with ordinary legislative procedure”
2) the Council and Parliament must consider it
3) the Council must implement a citizens’ initiative.
This is contrary to the way in which existing EU Directives are adopted. These specify a timescale by which EU Member States must transpose them into national legislation. EU REgulations take effect immediately.
As I do not think that any of the existing 27 EU Member States has any provision for citizens’ initiative, you can imagine that there will not be any great urgency to get citizens’ initiative implemented.
There are some issues on which I could imagine it being relatively easy (but still very challenging) to get to gather the 1m signatures specified in the Lisbon Treaty’s eg
1)Direct election of the President of the Commission – as the Head of the Executive side of EU governance – although how that will continue remains to be seen;
2) The use of referenda on new EU Treaties, if these are ever found to be necessary if the Treaty of Lisbon is adopted;
3) A clearer statement of the aims and purposes of the EU, setting out the powers and responsibilities of citizens, member states and the institutions (Commission, Parliament, Council) needed to achieve the aims. In short, a proper Constitution for the EU!
We need to start learning from how the Swiss govern themselves!
“On the issue of the voting in the Ministers meetings, in 2007 the Council made 508 decisions on EU regulations. Of those 425 could have been taken under the Qualified Majority Voting procedure, but only 37 were. This speaks volumes on how the EU works. It works by consensus among the member states. Lisbon won’t change that.”
I would counterargue that the threat of the veto being invoked ensured those issues didn’t get as far as a QMV vote. It constitutes leverage, whether it is used or not. The threat of it being used is where the leverage comes from.
Donal you raise interesting points, but I think a number of countires including Sweden and a few other Countries with a tradition of transparent government will see getting the intiatives going.
As for the referendums, in some countries national referendums are constitutionally banned, so a europe wide one cant happen. All changes to Lisbon and other treaties will have to be ratified in the normal way by each country. In the case of Ireland a referendum will be needed if it meet the conditions under Crotty v An Taoiseach.
Futuretaoiseach, but thats all QMV is leverage, and Ireland is good at gaming the system and creating alliances. Its what we excel at!
Lisbon is a step backwards. We have a Government at present that is using a think tank system that follows through the old mundane system off applying to Irish Citizens, Irish Households, and the Irish way of life hand me down ideas that has been worked and reworked within England or The UK or Great Britain for donkey’s years and that has failed to generate a decent cash flow for any councils or Boroughs in that Country. I should know after having served in the Regular Armed Forces of this Country up to 1978. I had no option but to leave this country and go there to find employment. When Maggie Thacther brought in Poll Tax for the peoples of that Country. The Peoples revolted and marched against it in many areas of that country as it was referred to as a very old system of Political Thinking that came about in the Black Princes time(when Innocent Peoples were hanged Drawn And Quartered) where it was sought to tax the Head of Population. Here we have a similar system been introduced of tax the homestead with relation to its value. Charge persons for a water system that is dangerous to drink at the best of times. All ideas that are hand me downs from past and present UK Governments. We have always lived in the shadow and the back pocket of The United Kingdom and we still are doing just that and the Juicy bit is that what The Irish Government is failing to provide Truthful Content to its peoples. It will be introduced through the back door as if Lisbon will automatically cough up and give to The Irish Peoples something special that it has failed to do to this day and This Government will and all of its ministers and most other parties within this country will chorus and chirp the values of Joining Lisbon; except for a few that will point out the wrongs and failures of ratifying such a treaty that will further the hardships and burdens that you as Irish Citizens are already suffering under and the Yoke of opression and fear will get worse once Ratified. What Lisbon will do is have a European Army. And America most likely will relenquish it’s desire to be a super power and Confer onto Europe that Priviledge and Authority. I witnessed with my own eyes the Army Unit that I served in for so many years; It’s Barracks been closed at Longford and that Unit been transferred to Athlone and several other Units in this country facing a similar fate as those other units as well were all amalgated so that when the time comes together for this European Army to take control we will have a quick Disembarkation Point for our soldiers to join those other forces and Mums and Dads of today will cry bitter tears as their sons and daughters will return in body bags what few bits of their bodies if any at all is left to return to these shores. It is not a question of what we can afford in this country. It is more a question of how we can all Bow to Lisbon and take upon us its rules and its regulations and now its Governmental Statutes and Decrees. Right now you do not have a country that is able to control itself. You have a bill of rights that is universal right the way across Europe ( That is destroying the very fabric of all societies that we all live within) that says it is ok for the outlandish and criminal behaviour that is part and parcel of everyday life in every suburb and on every street corner and in every sate that Lisbon is in Control of and we have to live by those laws. We have to date relenquished the God Given Rights to control what is taking place in our very own Schools. In the very homes that our young children are growing up in where parents have no control. In the Society that we live in that when a serious crime is committed that our capital punishement system is a small smack on the Wrist and a few years in Jail. Instead of The Death Penalty AND A PROPER BILL OF JUSTICE AND RIGHTS FOR THE PEOPLES OF THIS COUNTRY.( Where The Peoples and The Constutition by way of Referndum Decide their own Laws to Govern this Country and by way of this Treaty or Constutitional Rights and Priviledges of a Government for Europe that does not understand us or our laws or our ways of life) Teach these hooligans and murderers and those that cause serious crimes in our society a severe sharp shock treatment and put that on Public display. If we do not have a police force that is strong enough then have the armed forces of this country as a support to those police forces. What are we opening up our borders to where Lunatics and Criminals that are allowed to come here and rape and murder and pillage. When that is taking place. They should be given the shock treatment of their lives and deport their entire families out of this country never to return. We have persons in this Country that traverse it in mobile homes and live that kind and way of Life and are seen as a authority unto themselves and every where that they go they bring every kind of Volience and problems with them. It is about time that our police forces stood up to them and the armed forces as well and smash up their entire encampments and put an end to the terror and mayhem that they cause where ever that they go in our society so that they and all the other murderers and rapists and Killers and drug pushers will be of one mind that if we behave like this that is what will happen to us. That which has happened to all the others, that they were Excuted and severely punished for that criminal behaviour and wrongdoing and that they are made public examples of and those that are from other countries chucked out with their entire assets ceased. Turn our systems of Detention and Jails into a system that no Law Breaker will wish to enter. Make prisoners do everything at the double. Make them see and understand that they have broken the Law and the law is not something that they will laugh at. Put those that are in our Prisons into Chain Gangs doing the work of cleaning up our country and building a better country and put armed soldiers in charge of the chain Gangs and any attempts to get away. Shoot them. We live in a stupid country and we are governed by stupid laws and when you sign up to Lisbon they will become that much more stupid making the lives of a whole lot more of the kind society that we all live and reside here in this country as a whole that much more intolerable and that much more stupid and harder to live in and under.
In France where their is a Socialist Government. Farmers will march and sit down and use blockades in Major Cities and roads and stay indefinately until their rights are listened to and they receive the understanding and recnognition that they are entitled to. Here we have a little march to this road opening service or a picket at this or that Government Office and then you go home and you are laughed at and forgotten about and you will never get any where until you make yourselves heard again and again and again and how ever long that it takes until someone that is rubbish is running and destroying your livelyhoods or until you get change and understanding and new leadership and a new way of thinking.
What exactly did our forefathers before us fight for in 1916. What Did they fight and die for if we hand it over to the foreign invader that will rule us with a rod of iron and break our backs with misery as we are sold out by the very peoples that are supposed to be governing us.
Nationalise our Banks and stop fleecing our peoples of this nation by buying bad depts and paying top dollar to fraudsters with peoples income taxes and taxes that are a hand me down from the UK and that are a failure there and will also be a failure here.
What exactly did Michael Davitt Of Straide County Mayo, go out and fight for a land League for the poor and dispossessed of Ireland for, (Poor Peoples, Possibly in a lot of cases your Great Grandparents Such short memories you all have as you all clamour to get rich quicker and sod your neighbour) that were driven from their homes under The English Land Lord and Titled Gentry and Noble peoples of that era. If our Government of today will say to you peoples; the ancestors of those forgotten peoples that what the UK did to Ireland of that era was the right thing to do. If we are now sold into Slavery to Europe and a European Parliamentary System of Government that we as Irish Citizens can “SAY NO TO NOW” and that we have God Given Rights to POINT BLANKLY REFUSE in what ever form it is offered to us within.
Stop talking rubbish and nonsence and allow the Irish Nation to Govern itself and direct it’s very own affairs. Its Laws and Legaslative procedures and always remain Neutral. It is time that we stepped back from the abyiss of a Hell bent Europe that has something like that at its core at best. Right now you are getting nothing from Europe. Do you want to Join a European System of Government by persons that has taken away from you something that they will offer back to you on a silver platter. Something that will glitter to the eye while it deceives the mind and you will vote yes to that kind of behaviour when you could have walked away and decided your own fate which is much better than anything you will ever get from all the breadcrumbs that fall from Europes Table. That is even if you are allowed anywhere near it while they bleed the resources of your country dry with the blessings of those that Govern you of this time.
I wrote to the present Taoiseach on the 12th march 2009 and took to his attentions several new ideas that would bring about invention and a new era and a tremendous amount of work for the peoples of this country.The wealth that this country would be far higher than anything you could ever dream of or have ever seen in the past and their would be no requirement for stupid taxes that is making the individual citizen of this country poorer in these very hard times of severe depression. Ideas for invention that will work. Instead of Joining Europe. Europe would come to you. You would become one of the leading nations in export of new technology to the whole wide world and it would bring peace world wide. We are in a system that is screwing the lifes blood out of this small tiny and very insignificent country when you place it alongside the rest of Europe and for what means and to what untimely end. My ideas was not even considered. That is where this country as a whole is at and that is where it is heading downhill without any breaks and it is lead by “IDIOTS BIG TIME”
If you are a younger person reading this and born in the time that this country has experienced plenty and very good times. Please do some research before you think in anger. Peoples, Councils and Committees leading right into the seat of Government when you discuss the conservation issues that surrounds Peat Turbury Rights and the rights of peoples that live and heat their homes by these methods. Please come and live in the communities and understand the way of life before you take away from them something that they depend on now to heat their homes. This is a relatively inexpensive source of energy> Are you able to put in place a constant source of energy that is relatively free for the one that you are taking away.
If you are some person that is far removed from peoples and communities that you are writing a bill of Rights for this Government and you are borrowing your ideas from The UK. Then I suggest that you go and live within the communities of This country. The very poorest of them where they will find it hardest to pay in The West of Ireland and North South East and West as well and do not write stupid ideas that is popping into your head that you see worked all over the rest of The World. First do some research within the communities that you wish to apply these harsh laws to and feel how they will feel and react. Do not always apply the Lapdog Technology that has appeared to apply down through the years of following in the footsteps of Great Britain.
Your Ancestors, Your Parents Grandparents and Great Grandparents has worked very hard for this country THINK HARD BEFORE YOU GIVE IT AWAY.
Stephen,
You do know, I trust, the difference between “a majority of” and “all” ?
Fergus,
I do, but the EU dosent work like that. Ireland agreed and maybe suggested some of the areas that will move to the QMV procedure, but just like veto’s they will rarely be used.
“Now nothing in the EU limits the work of the national governments”, you say.
How that can possibly be true escapes me.
Just one example: The Irish government, even if parliament approves it, can not impose an import duty on, say, condoms. Because membership of the EU limits the power of any member-state government over taxes on external trade.
You also say:”Nothing in Europe can be done without our Minister raising his or her arm at that meeting in Brussels and agreeing to it.”
That means nothing if it does not mean that we have a veto. But we don’t have a veto on very much, and if you have your way, we will have a veto on even less.
All that said, I am NOT at one with Mr Bopp on this one, because I do accept a need for EU-level law in some matters e.g. financial regulation.
Import duty would go against the basics of the EU. It goes against the idea of the EU. And it dosent limit how the Government works, it limits what the Government can do. Big difference.
We actually have a veto in a huge number of areas. The areas that move to QMV have been agreed by the Government and some even suggested by the government.
EU is not about haing vetos, it is about working together.
“I do, but the EU dosent work like that.” – Stephen.
What way does the EU work. As far as I can see the powers that be do not want to tell us. The EU claims to be a democracy but Ireland has proved on two occasions that it is democratic only when it suits – the politians or the policians in the pockets of ???.
So who pull the strings in the EU – the people, the politicians or multinational industries or an EU versions of the neo-cons etc. The fact stare us in the face, do they not.
“Of those 425 could have been taken under the Qualified Majority Voting procedure, but only 37 were. This speaks volumes on how the EU works. It works by consensus among the member states. Lisbon won’t change that” you say.
If it won’t change anything, what is its point ?
I accept that most decisions are by consensus. The fact is that the main justification given for Lisbon is to improve decision-making. That can only mean that it is desired to move forward in ways that did not happen in the past.
In other words, “past performance is no guide to future results”.
Stephen,
Where is the provision that requires the Commission to “act” on any Citizens’ Initiative ? The last time I looked, there was merely a requirement to “consider”.
I “consider” many e-mails every day, and consign them to the junk bin seconds afterwards.
Besides, without Lisbon, there is nothing to prevent citizens from signing such petitions. An EU-wide petition signed by 1-million plus would receive attention, new treaty or not. What it would NOT get – and that’s OK with me – is automatic transmission into law.
@EddieL not getting into Conspiracy theory’s, EU is run by the member states. In fact the EU Civil Service is run by an Irish Woman, Catherine Day.
@Fergus Its as you said earlier its about Leverage. Each side needs a negotiation tool. Sitting there and waving veto is not a negotiation, it will encourage communication and lead to better deals allaying all concerns.
Consider/Act semantics, my good man. Also there is no automatic transmission.
You say it as if it was a bad thing?
Stephen: “EU is run by the member states.” Unfotunately Ireland is not one of them because it is obvious from our current position on Lisbon that Ireland has to do what it is told.
Simon: I liked the EU the way it was before we were forced to vote twice on the Nice treaty. I like the common currency. I liked the EU before it became a paradise for greed and exploitation.
If we follow what the Neo-cons followed in America we will get what they got. Do you want that?
EddieL, Ireland is member states. Blame the government for not standing up for the vote result, not the EU. Government has final say on referendum.
@EddieL you said “The EU claims to be a democracy but Ireland has proved on two occasions that it is democratic only when it suits”. I believe that the political context taken at one vote can change and require another. If we argue the opposite, than Fianna Fail can say that there is no need for another election as the electorial mandate of 5 years which they received must be completed. I believe when there has been changes that require a re-vote then we should vote again.
@Fergus you jump back and forth between the way the game is played in the EU and the architecture of it. I think it is important to remember that at any time that we feel that our national interest is best served away from the other member states of the EU we can just walk away (e.g. Greenland).
If we changed the structure so that all items required unanimity there would in an EU of 27 plus be a greater chance of stalemate (e.g. UN Security Council). Currently, the new member countries are only getting up to speed on how the must have an opinion on every issue raised. Ireland though small is an expert in this area using its ability to achieve a mutually satificatory solution to get what is in the Irish interest – Soft power.
If we changed the system to be cut and dry more democratic (majority wins) then Ireland’s proportion of power would be quite small – Hard Power. With in this frame of thinking we must asking why is it that one Irish citizen is weighed more highly than a German citizen. Creating a balance between people and the state is inherently undemocratic but necessary to balance the interest of the small countries with that of the large ones.
The Lisbon Treaty instils these checks & balances into the system. I believe the problems that we have arise from the fact we do not hold our national politicians to account (or our national representatives in the EU).
Pat: So you believe that if we voted “YES” the first time then, due to “changes” in the meantime we would now be voting again to get a “NO” answer. Pull the other one!
You also say “Ireland though small is an expert in this area using its ability to achieve a mutually satificatory solution to get what is in the Irish interest” Are you saying that the position we now find ourselves in is in Ireland’s interests and it was all designed by experts? Do you know something that all the pundits don’t?
EddieL: if things had changed since a “Yes” vote to a situation that Irish interest were no longer served by being a part of EU then we’d indeed have another vote. Though you’d need to vote “yes” on the ballot to leave the eu and remove the amendments. If this is ever the case then we shouldn’t be afraid to leave.
On the second point, you might be confused as I was referring to how the eu system worked in practice. Not a comment about the treaty.
Pat: If the first ballot was not taken as final the second should not be either and we’ll say that we voted “YES” because the “YES” side were stupid and ignorant. We’ll go through a charade to allay the fears of the “YES” side and we’ll have a third ballot in another year.
As I said, pull the other one! The facts stare us in the face, do they not?