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	<title>Comments on: Scare Tactics</title>
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	<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2008/06/scare-tactics/</link>
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		<title>By: Jón Valur Jensson</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2008/06/scare-tactics/comment-page-1/#comment-65862</link>
		<dc:creator>Jón Valur Jensson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 01:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3179#comment-65862</guid>
		<description>Is the French foreign minister NOT a part of the Yes campaign? So he&#039;s probably a part of the No campaigners when speaking to Irishmen, even if he voted Yes in France?! – You really mean it?!

Rarely has one seen as unified an attempt by a country´s politicians joined with shameless interference by powerful foreigners as in this case: Angela Merkel desperately trying to talk you over, using her feminine persuasion, and then Kouchner robustly threatening to make the Irish the &quot;victims&quot; of EC reprisals, or what, in case of a No result!

It will be a witness of a sad state of the once proud Eire if such attempts at manipulating you will be met in this election with a humiliated surrender.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is the French foreign minister NOT a part of the Yes campaign? So he&#8217;s probably a part of the No campaigners when speaking to Irishmen, even if he voted Yes in France?! – You really mean it?!</p>
<p>Rarely has one seen as unified an attempt by a country´s politicians joined with shameless interference by powerful foreigners as in this case: Angela Merkel desperately trying to talk you over, using her feminine persuasion, and then Kouchner robustly threatening to make the Irish the &#8220;victims&#8221; of EC reprisals, or what, in case of a No result!</p>
<p>It will be a witness of a sad state of the once proud Eire if such attempts at manipulating you will be met in this election with a humiliated surrender.</p>
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		<title>By: Tomaltach</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2008/06/scare-tactics/comment-page-1/#comment-65449</link>
		<dc:creator>Tomaltach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3179#comment-65449</guid>
		<description>Squid said &lt;i&gt;The british and danes have been able to negotiate opt outs, one that can be seen on the ground ... and have not suffered&lt;/i&gt;. We have negotiated opt outs too - dozens of them! But no-one has rejected an entire Treaty and caused the evolution to halt permantently. Yes the French rejected, but their government later ratified Lisbon. 

&lt;i&gt;they can go back and negotiate a better deal and address the concerns relating to collective bargaining, the loss of a commissioner, neutrality, a common defence policy, etc etc etc.&lt;/i&gt;. 

Let&#039;s see that with the gloss:

they can go back and negotiate a better deal and address the concerns relating to collective bargaining(absurd, the treaty is pro-collective bargaining, it&#039;s our government that hasn&#039;t commited to it), the loss of a commissioner (the win in negotiatiosn there where minuscule states like Malta have equal right to a commissioner as Germany was an extraordinary success), neutrality(we have opt outs and can retain our triple lock), a common defence policy(it is repeatedly stated in the treaties that collective action of any kind cannot compromise the neutrality of particular states), etc etc etc.

In short, there is nothing to renegotiate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Squid said <i>The british and danes have been able to negotiate opt outs, one that can be seen on the ground &#8230; and have not suffered</i>. We have negotiated opt outs too &#8211; dozens of them! But no-one has rejected an entire Treaty and caused the evolution to halt permantently. Yes the French rejected, but their government later ratified Lisbon. </p>
<p><i>they can go back and negotiate a better deal and address the concerns relating to collective bargaining, the loss of a commissioner, neutrality, a common defence policy, etc etc etc.</i>. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s see that with the gloss:</p>
<p>they can go back and negotiate a better deal and address the concerns relating to collective bargaining(absurd, the treaty is pro-collective bargaining, it&#8217;s our government that hasn&#8217;t commited to it), the loss of a commissioner (the win in negotiatiosn there where minuscule states like Malta have equal right to a commissioner as Germany was an extraordinary success), neutrality(we have opt outs and can retain our triple lock), a common defence policy(it is repeatedly stated in the treaties that collective action of any kind cannot compromise the neutrality of particular states), etc etc etc.</p>
<p>In short, there is nothing to renegotiate.</p>
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		<title>By: WorldbyStorm</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2008/06/scare-tactics/comment-page-1/#comment-65444</link>
		<dc:creator>WorldbyStorm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3179#comment-65444</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d entirely agree with Dan, Tomaltach etc on this. Firstly Kouchner is not a part of the Yes &#039;campaign&#039;. Secondly the level of fear-mongering, and I say this as one just barely voting Yes, coming from the No side has to be seen to be believed. FT, your position on this is very very well known at this stage, and entirely sincere, but a lot of it seems to be grounded in assertions and emotive stuff about &#039;bullying&#039; &#039;jealousness&#039; etc. Not very strong grounds IMO. But worth noting that comparing and contrasting the Dutch economy (an embedded gateway into Europe), the French one (arguably the last great statist economy in Europe) and that of Ireland is simply pointless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d entirely agree with Dan, Tomaltach etc on this. Firstly Kouchner is not a part of the Yes &#8216;campaign&#8217;. Secondly the level of fear-mongering, and I say this as one just barely voting Yes, coming from the No side has to be seen to be believed. FT, your position on this is very very well known at this stage, and entirely sincere, but a lot of it seems to be grounded in assertions and emotive stuff about &#8216;bullying&#8217; &#8216;jealousness&#8217; etc. Not very strong grounds IMO. But worth noting that comparing and contrasting the Dutch economy (an embedded gateway into Europe), the French one (arguably the last great statist economy in Europe) and that of Ireland is simply pointless.</p>
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		<title>By: Second Fiddle &#124; afoe &#124; A Fistful of Euros &#124; European Opinion</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2008/06/scare-tactics/comment-page-1/#comment-65395</link>
		<dc:creator>Second Fiddle &#124; afoe &#124; A Fistful of Euros &#124; European Opinion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 01:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3179#comment-65395</guid>
		<description>[...] the 6 month rotating presidency at that time.  Because of course, if the Irish people listen to Bernard Kouchner, they will vote Yes on the Lisbon Treaty and the permanent EU presidency could be up and running in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the 6 month rotating presidency at that time.  Because of course, if the Irish people listen to Bernard Kouchner, they will vote Yes on the Lisbon Treaty and the permanent EU presidency could be up and running in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2008/06/scare-tactics/comment-page-1/#comment-65367</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 23:10:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3179#comment-65367</guid>
		<description>FT, you&#039;re voting No? Really? I&#039;m shocked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FT, you&#8217;re voting No? Really? I&#8217;m shocked.</p>
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		<title>By: FutureTaoiseach</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2008/06/scare-tactics/comment-page-1/#comment-65338</link>
		<dc:creator>FutureTaoiseach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 19:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3179#comment-65338</guid>
		<description>I will not be bulled by foreign politicians jealous of the Irish corporate tax rate. I&#039;m voting no. 

The French and Dutch weren&#039;t cast out into the wilderness when they voted no and neither will we. The economic arguments for a yes vote are hogwash considering Dutch unemployment fell to 2% after the no and FDI into France doubled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will not be bulled by foreign politicians jealous of the Irish corporate tax rate. I&#8217;m voting no. </p>
<p>The French and Dutch weren&#8217;t cast out into the wilderness when they voted no and neither will we. The economic arguments for a yes vote are hogwash considering Dutch unemployment fell to 2% after the no and FDI into France doubled.</p>
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		<title>By: squid</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2008/06/scare-tactics/comment-page-1/#comment-65326</link>
		<dc:creator>squid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 17:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3179#comment-65326</guid>
		<description>But what about the French and Dutch? The French government has ratified Lisbon and the Dutch have yet to put it through ratification. But in essence, Lisbon, which is plan B, has not yet been rejected elsewhere. The political momentum is behind this integration project still and if Ireland stops it, it will not be a nice time in Europe for our diplomats, ministers, and representatives. That is the reality, not scare mongering.

That is nothing but speculation given that it hasn&#039;t happened yet.  Between the time the french rejected the constitution and ratified the lisbon treaty, they did not suffer.  The british and danes have been able to negotiate opt outs, one that can be seen on the ground, from previous treaties and have not suffered.  To claim that we will suffer because we rejected some treaty is nonsense.  If the no side wins one of two things will happen.  Cowen will take the Robert Mugabe route and hold ballot after ballot until they get the result they want  like they did with Nice, or they can go back and negotiate a better deal and address the concerns relating to collective bargaining, the loss of a commissioner, neutrality, a common defence policy, etc etc etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But what about the French and Dutch? The French government has ratified Lisbon and the Dutch have yet to put it through ratification. But in essence, Lisbon, which is plan B, has not yet been rejected elsewhere. The political momentum is behind this integration project still and if Ireland stops it, it will not be a nice time in Europe for our diplomats, ministers, and representatives. That is the reality, not scare mongering.</p>
<p>That is nothing but speculation given that it hasn&#8217;t happened yet.  Between the time the french rejected the constitution and ratified the lisbon treaty, they did not suffer.  The british and danes have been able to negotiate opt outs, one that can be seen on the ground, from previous treaties and have not suffered.  To claim that we will suffer because we rejected some treaty is nonsense.  If the no side wins one of two things will happen.  Cowen will take the Robert Mugabe route and hold ballot after ballot until they get the result they want  like they did with Nice, or they can go back and negotiate a better deal and address the concerns relating to collective bargaining, the loss of a commissioner, neutrality, a common defence policy, etc etc etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Tomaltach</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2008/06/scare-tactics/comment-page-1/#comment-65320</link>
		<dc:creator>Tomaltach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 16:59:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3179#comment-65320</guid>
		<description>I agree with Dan. Kouchner is not part of the Yes camp.

And there is no comparison between the outrageous statements of elements in the No camp - on tax, on abortion, on gay marriage, on defence - and the suggestion that Ireland will suffer if the treaty is rejected.

Ireland _will_ suffer if Lisbon is rejected. It will suffer for a period of time at least because our political capital account in Brussels will be reset. We can cry about it, we can whinge about democracy, but we will damage our ability to pull favours in any immediate discussions in the EU. All people I have heard with experience in EU negotiations or deal making say that building alliances, trust and diplomacy count for far more than voting weights which are rarely used. 

But what about the French and Dutch? The French government has ratified Lisbon and the Dutch have yet to put it through ratification. But in essence, Lisbon, which is plan B, has not yet been rejected elsewhere. The political momentum is behind this integration project still and if Ireland stops it, it will not be a nice time in Europe for our diplomats, ministers, and representatives. That is the reality, not scare mongering.

But there is no place in the No camp for political reality. The bulk of the No camp, in all its various and ugly guises, is about as far from political reality as one can get.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Dan. Kouchner is not part of the Yes camp.</p>
<p>And there is no comparison between the outrageous statements of elements in the No camp &#8211; on tax, on abortion, on gay marriage, on defence &#8211; and the suggestion that Ireland will suffer if the treaty is rejected.</p>
<p>Ireland _will_ suffer if Lisbon is rejected. It will suffer for a period of time at least because our political capital account in Brussels will be reset. We can cry about it, we can whinge about democracy, but we will damage our ability to pull favours in any immediate discussions in the EU. All people I have heard with experience in EU negotiations or deal making say that building alliances, trust and diplomacy count for far more than voting weights which are rarely used. </p>
<p>But what about the French and Dutch? The French government has ratified Lisbon and the Dutch have yet to put it through ratification. But in essence, Lisbon, which is plan B, has not yet been rejected elsewhere. The political momentum is behind this integration project still and if Ireland stops it, it will not be a nice time in Europe for our diplomats, ministers, and representatives. That is the reality, not scare mongering.</p>
<p>But there is no place in the No camp for political reality. The bulk of the No camp, in all its various and ugly guises, is about as far from political reality as one can get.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2008/06/scare-tactics/comment-page-1/#comment-65270</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 10:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3179#comment-65270</guid>
		<description>Simon, to suggest that this guy is part of the Yes campaign is about as sensible as suggesting that we should take on board the views of Jean Marie Le Pen as being representative of the No side.

In the last few days of most campaigns the emphasis is on getting your vote out and placing last minutes doubts in minds of those likely to vote for your opposition.

Some elements within the No side have used nothing but scare tactics the whole through and some Yes campaigners have treated none of the arguments on the No side with even a modicum of respect. I think it is quite easy to point out individuals and organisations on both sides that have avoided any positive engagement through. The question is if the people chose to listen to them over the others who have made positive efforts to debate the actual content and detail what does that say about the electorate?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon, to suggest that this guy is part of the Yes campaign is about as sensible as suggesting that we should take on board the views of Jean Marie Le Pen as being representative of the No side.</p>
<p>In the last few days of most campaigns the emphasis is on getting your vote out and placing last minutes doubts in minds of those likely to vote for your opposition.</p>
<p>Some elements within the No side have used nothing but scare tactics the whole through and some Yes campaigners have treated none of the arguments on the No side with even a modicum of respect. I think it is quite easy to point out individuals and organisations on both sides that have avoided any positive engagement through. The question is if the people chose to listen to them over the others who have made positive efforts to debate the actual content and detail what does that say about the electorate?</p>
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		<title>By: Bolg</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2008/06/scare-tactics/comment-page-1/#comment-65269</link>
		<dc:creator>Bolg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 10:21:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3179#comment-65269</guid>
		<description>Funny that the No side accuse the Yes side of scare tactics.  I have never witnessed such attempts to scare and bully the electorate as the no side have engaged in.

BTW has anyone noticed www.eiregobrach.ie ?  This is truly crazy.  I was handed a leaflet of their&#039;s at Connolly Station at the weekend.  Really scary people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny that the No side accuse the Yes side of scare tactics.  I have never witnessed such attempts to scare and bully the electorate as the no side have engaged in.</p>
<p>BTW has anyone noticed <a href="http://www.eiregobrach.ie" rel="nofollow">http://www.eiregobrach.ie</a> ?  This is truly crazy.  I was handed a leaflet of their&#8217;s at Connolly Station at the weekend.  Really scary people.</p>
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