Comments on: Rounding up the Lisbon bloggers – Part II http://www.irishelection.com/2008/05/rounding-up-the-lisbon-bloggers-part-ii/ Coverage of Irish Politics, News and Current Affairs Thu, 09 Feb 2012 19:43:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.5 By: Garry Miley http://www.irishelection.com/2008/05/rounding-up-the-lisbon-bloggers-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-64511 Garry Miley Fri, 23 May 2008 17:49:52 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3125#comment-64511 During the French referendum on the Constitution, they had a quite long series of nightly debates on one of the main public channels (I saw it over here on Sky's TV5 which lifts programmes from a range of different sources - I think France 2 was the original broadcaster). It was astonishing how differently the French discussed what is, essentially, the same material we're being asked to vote on. Their debate focussed on the real core issues: social and community structure, relationship of citizen to state, the conceptual shape Europe was taking on, federalism versus centralism, etc. It was vigorous and, although quite tiring, also quite refreshing. Yes, some of the politicians spun to suit themselves and, yes, some of the nationalist and anti-nationalist rhetoric was overblown (it's France we're talking about after all) but by and large public commentators made their way to the heart of the matter and stayed there. And by voting no to the Constitution, I think the majority of people in France understood that they were not voting no to Europe - they simply didn't like what they were being asked to vote on. The comparison to how Irish politicians are leading the debate here is actually - I can't think of a better word for it - embarrassing. Neither Bertie Ahern, Martin Cullen (in a particularly awful appearance on Q and A), Charlie McCreevy nor Dick Roche have had the courtesy to the Irish people to at least try to discuss Lisbon on its own terms. During the French referendum on the Constitution, they had a quite long series of nightly debates on one of the main public channels (I saw it over here on Sky’s TV5 which lifts programmes from a range of different sources – I think France 2 was the original broadcaster). It was astonishing how differently the French discussed what is, essentially, the same material we’re being asked to vote on. Their debate focussed on the real core issues: social and community structure, relationship of citizen to state, the conceptual shape Europe was taking on, federalism versus centralism, etc. It was vigorous and, although quite tiring, also quite refreshing. Yes, some of the politicians spun to suit themselves and, yes, some of the nationalist and anti-nationalist rhetoric was overblown (it’s France we’re talking about after all) but by and large public commentators made their way to the heart of the matter and stayed there. And by voting no to the Constitution, I think the majority of people in France understood that they were not voting no to Europe – they simply didn’t like what they were being asked to vote on. The comparison to how Irish politicians are leading the debate here is actually – I can’t think of a better word for it – embarrassing. Neither Bertie Ahern, Martin Cullen (in a particularly awful appearance on Q and A), Charlie McCreevy nor Dick Roche have had the courtesy to the Irish people to at least try to discuss Lisbon on its own terms.

]]> By: FutureTaoiseach http://www.irishelection.com/2008/05/rounding-up-the-lisbon-bloggers-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-64508 FutureTaoiseach Fri, 23 May 2008 15:09:42 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3125#comment-64508 It's important to understand that if we vote no, all that will happen is the status-quo - which I can accept and even like (with some reservations). This isn't a no to Europe. France and Holland remain in the EU, and unemployment has fallen since they voted no. It’s important to understand that if we vote no, all that will happen is the status-quo – which I can accept and even like (with some reservations). This isn’t a no to Europe. France and Holland remain in the EU, and unemployment has fallen since they voted no.

]]> By: Garry Miley http://www.irishelection.com/2008/05/rounding-up-the-lisbon-bloggers-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-64490 Garry Miley Thu, 22 May 2008 07:06:03 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3125#comment-64490 Dan, my thinking behind nominating Commissioners is that countries as small as Ireland will seldom be in a position to supply someone of sufficient callibre or expertise for what should be an executive position. I prefer the American system where Commissioners (i.e. Secretaries) with serious, serious job qualifications go before the Senate for approval in what is a very public job interview. On the bigger issue, though, isn't it amazing that this aspect of the debate - structures for democracy (what its all about, really) - hasn't been addressed by any element of the media that I'm aware of. Dan, my thinking behind nominating Commissioners is that countries as small as Ireland will seldom be in a position to supply someone of sufficient callibre or expertise for what should be an executive position. I prefer the American system where Commissioners (i.e. Secretaries) with serious, serious job qualifications go before the Senate for approval in what is a very public job interview.

On the bigger issue, though, isn’t it amazing that this aspect of the debate – structures for democracy (what its all about, really) – hasn’t been addressed by any element of the media that I’m aware of.

]]> By: Dan Sullivan http://www.irishelection.com/2008/05/rounding-up-the-lisbon-bloggers-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-64436 Dan Sullivan Mon, 19 May 2008 18:46:00 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3125#comment-64436 Oddly enough Garry I was suggesting something similar on p.ie in terms of a European Senate with 3 from each member state until the total number exceeds 100 and then it should drop to 2 per state. I would still allow the member states to nominate commissioners though. Oddly enough Garry I was suggesting something similar on p.ie in terms of a European Senate with 3 from each member state until the total number exceeds 100 and then it should drop to 2 per state. I would still allow the member states to nominate commissioners though.

]]> By: Garry Miley http://www.irishelection.com/2008/05/rounding-up-the-lisbon-bloggers-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-64434 Garry Miley Mon, 19 May 2008 17:42:28 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3125#comment-64434 I've been urging a no vote on my website - The Planning Dispatch - and in my column in the property section of the Tribune. You'll find a sampler here: http://www.garrymiley.com/2008/02/07/Lisbon.aspx My main argument is that, if they're serious about forging a more democratic link with the citizenry, the EU should be replacing the Commission with an upper house of the European Parliament having two elected representatives from each member state. A directly elected European head should be given executive powers limited to the EU's areas of jurisdiction. A vote for Lisbon is a vote to consolidate a system which is already wrong. I intend to write about this issue further both on the website www.garrymiley.com and in the Trib. Cheers I’ve been urging a no vote on my website – The Planning Dispatch – and in my column in the property section of the Tribune. You’ll find a sampler here:

http://www.garrymiley.com/2008/02/07/Lisbon.aspx

My main argument is that, if they’re serious about forging a more democratic link with the citizenry, the EU should be replacing the Commission with an upper house of the European Parliament having two elected representatives from each member state. A directly elected European head should be given executive powers limited to the EU’s areas of jurisdiction.

A vote for Lisbon is a vote to consolidate a system which is already wrong. I intend to write about this issue further both on the website http://www.garrymiley.com and in the Trib. Cheers

]]> By: Darren http://www.irishelection.com/2008/05/rounding-up-the-lisbon-bloggers-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-64431 Darren Mon, 19 May 2008 09:50:32 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3125#comment-64431 Thank you very much for the mention. Thank you very much for the mention.

]]> By: FutureTaoiseach http://www.irishelection.com/2008/05/rounding-up-the-lisbon-bloggers-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-64426 FutureTaoiseach Sun, 18 May 2008 18:30:58 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3125#comment-64426 As David McCullagh, RTE's political correspondant has just said on the 9 o'clock news, the "Yes" side were even further ahead at this stage of the first Nice referendum, and the "No's" still won. As you know by now, I am profoundly opposed to this Treaty on the grounds that I regard it as an appalling deal for Ireland which will consign Irish independence and European democracy to the dustbin of history, by centralising power in the hands of unelected, unaccountable, bureaucrats in Brussels. I believe it deserves rejection on June 12th, as it weakens Ireland's hand at the Council of Ministers, the Irish Supreme Court's independence from Brussels, Ireland's right to referenda on EU treaties and institutional changes, and Irish neutrality. It is a bad deal for Ireland, and I am counting on the 47% undecided and a high turnout of "No" voters to make up the numbers to defeat the document. To those on the "yes" side who dismiss my hopes as fantasy, I would remind you that almost all the undecideds in 2001 voted "No", and if it happened once, it could well happen again. I certainly hope so. The Irish people deserve better, and by voting no we will - I trust - bring that about As David McCullagh, RTE’s political correspondant has just said on the 9 o’clock news, the “Yes” side were even further ahead at this stage of the first Nice referendum, and the “No’s” still won. As you know by now, I am profoundly opposed to this Treaty on the grounds that I regard it as an appalling deal for Ireland which will consign Irish independence and European democracy to the dustbin of history, by centralising power in the hands of unelected, unaccountable, bureaucrats in Brussels. I believe it deserves rejection on June 12th, as it weakens Ireland’s hand at the Council of Ministers, the Irish Supreme Court’s independence from Brussels, Ireland’s right to referenda on EU treaties and institutional changes, and Irish neutrality. It is a bad deal for Ireland, and I am counting on the 47% undecided and a high turnout of “No” voters to make up the numbers to defeat the document. To those on the “yes” side who dismiss my hopes as fantasy, I would remind you that almost all the undecideds in 2001 voted “No”, and if it happened once, it could well happen again. I certainly hope so. The Irish people deserve better, and by voting no we will – I trust – bring that about

]]> By: Cian http://www.irishelection.com/2008/05/rounding-up-the-lisbon-bloggers-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-64420 Cian Sat, 17 May 2008 23:07:18 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3125#comment-64420 no mention of Ireland's <a href="http://killianforde.blogspot.com/2008/05/irelands-eurobore.html" rel="nofollow">Eurobore</a>? ;) no mention of Ireland’s Eurobore?

;)

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