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	<title>Comments on: On the incomprehensibility of the Lisbon Treaty</title>
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	<description>Coverage of Irish Politics, News and Current Affairs</description>
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		<title>By: Irish Election &#187; Which Way Will the Undecideds Fall?</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2008/05/on-lisbon-incomprehensibility/comment-page-1/#comment-64570</link>
		<dc:creator>Irish Election &#187; Which Way Will the Undecideds Fall?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 13:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3130#comment-64570</guid>
		<description>[...] this is that the evidence which rational argument thrives on is so inconclusive. The Treaty is unreadable in isolation, while when put in context it is a complex legal document and like all legal documents it is open [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this is that the evidence which rational argument thrives on is so inconclusive. The Treaty is unreadable in isolation, while when put in context it is a complex legal document and like all legal documents it is open [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Gaughan</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2008/05/on-lisbon-incomprehensibility/comment-page-1/#comment-64513</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Gaughan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 20:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3130#comment-64513</guid>
		<description>@Brian: Failed? How? What did I fail at exactly? You&#039;ve left me a bit lost here.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Could you please quote where exactly the Irish government and/or the EU attached the consolidated version to their widely publicised pro-Lisbon campaign? Or where exactly the government campaign or the EU refers to a link to a linear version of the treaty?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Is the Department of Foreign Affairs good enough? http://www.reformtreaty.ie/documents/

&lt;blockquote&gt;Or you apparently assume that all the Irish voters just need to be as &quot;smart&quot; as you are and will have the time and energy to dig a readable treaty up to the surface to enable themselves to make an informed decision.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Sorry, but you seem to have got things backwards. I&#039;m not expressing annoyance at the voting public, but at people who use a disingenuous argument against the treaty. The incomprehensibility argument &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; disingenuous because it doesn&#039;t help anybody  decide in an informed way. It&#039;s scaremongering in the same way the idiotic argument that if we &lt;em&gt;don&#039;t&lt;/em&gt; vote for the treaty, we&#039;re somehow bad Europeans.

Personally, I think both sides are largely being deceitful in their own ways. From the tone of what you&#039;ve written, you appear to be assuming bad faith on my part. Don&#039;t: it&#039;s neither just nor warranted. Personally, I don&#039;t care what way anybody votes just as long as they make an informed decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Brian: Failed? How? What did I fail at exactly? You&#8217;ve left me a bit lost here.</p>
<blockquote><p>Could you please quote where exactly the Irish government and/or the EU attached the consolidated version to their widely publicised pro-Lisbon campaign? Or where exactly the government campaign or the EU refers to a link to a linear version of the treaty?</p></blockquote>
<p>Is the Department of Foreign Affairs good enough? <a href="http://www.reformtreaty.ie/documents/" rel="nofollow">http://www.reformtreaty.ie/documents/</a></p>
<blockquote><p>Or you apparently assume that all the Irish voters just need to be as &#8220;smart&#8221; as you are and will have the time and energy to dig a readable treaty up to the surface to enable themselves to make an informed decision.</p></blockquote>
<p>Sorry, but you seem to have got things backwards. I&#8217;m not expressing annoyance at the voting public, but at people who use a disingenuous argument against the treaty. The incomprehensibility argument <em>is</em> disingenuous because it doesn&#8217;t help anybody  decide in an informed way. It&#8217;s scaremongering in the same way the idiotic argument that if we <em>don&#8217;t</em> vote for the treaty, we&#8217;re somehow bad Europeans.</p>
<p>Personally, I think both sides are largely being deceitful in their own ways. From the tone of what you&#8217;ve written, you appear to be assuming bad faith on my part. Don&#8217;t: it&#8217;s neither just nor warranted. Personally, I don&#8217;t care what way anybody votes just as long as they make an informed decision.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2008/05/on-lisbon-incomprehensibility/comment-page-1/#comment-64509</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 15:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3130#comment-64509</guid>
		<description>Nice try but failed again. 

Could you please quote where exactly the Irish government and/or the EU attached the consolidated version to their widely publicised pro-Lisbon campaign? Or where exactly the government campaign or the EU refers to a link to a linear version of the treaty? (The EU&#039;s official site has also failed to post the full treaty; only offers the amendments for downloading under the name of &quot;Lisbon Treaty&quot;.)

Or you apparently assume that all the Irish voters just need to be as &quot;smart&quot; as you are and will have the time and energy to dig a readable treaty up to the surface to enable themselves to make an informed decision. Or, despite the ongoing aggressive deceit-campaign for a yes vote pushed by the EU and the Irish government, everyone should be a NO voter by default and as such should read the Libertas NO group daily, the organisation having posted a consolidated version of the treaty. Or, maybe all voters should actually prepare their own consolidated version from the treaties and the Lisbon amendments, maybe by using their own developed software for the purpose. 

Btw, conspiracy is a word that the pro-Lisbon camp uses even when the subject is not discussed at all. They are so obsessed with the idea of a &quot;conspiracy theory&quot; that speaks volumes by itself. On the other hand, it has been revealed by Bonde (former MEP) that the Lisbon Treaty is a product of conspiracy, - in practice, not in theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice try but failed again. </p>
<p>Could you please quote where exactly the Irish government and/or the EU attached the consolidated version to their widely publicised pro-Lisbon campaign? Or where exactly the government campaign or the EU refers to a link to a linear version of the treaty? (The EU&#8217;s official site has also failed to post the full treaty; only offers the amendments for downloading under the name of &#8220;Lisbon Treaty&#8221;.)</p>
<p>Or you apparently assume that all the Irish voters just need to be as &#8220;smart&#8221; as you are and will have the time and energy to dig a readable treaty up to the surface to enable themselves to make an informed decision. Or, despite the ongoing aggressive deceit-campaign for a yes vote pushed by the EU and the Irish government, everyone should be a NO voter by default and as such should read the Libertas NO group daily, the organisation having posted a consolidated version of the treaty. Or, maybe all voters should actually prepare their own consolidated version from the treaties and the Lisbon amendments, maybe by using their own developed software for the purpose. </p>
<p>Btw, conspiracy is a word that the pro-Lisbon camp uses even when the subject is not discussed at all. They are so obsessed with the idea of a &#8220;conspiracy theory&#8221; that speaks volumes by itself. On the other hand, it has been revealed by Bonde (former MEP) that the Lisbon Treaty is a product of conspiracy, &#8211; in practice, not in theory.</p>
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		<title>By: Cian</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2008/05/on-lisbon-incomprehensibility/comment-page-1/#comment-64445</link>
		<dc:creator>Cian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 10:21:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3130#comment-64445</guid>
		<description>A good point and i thought that was what the Times were publishing on Sunday. When I saw it was the actual treaty I felt it was a little bit of bad faith - we know it doesnt make sense so to put it in context is more a public service. Still agendas and all that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good point and i thought that was what the Times were publishing on Sunday. When I saw it was the actual treaty I felt it was a little bit of bad faith &#8211; we know it doesnt make sense so to put it in context is more a public service. Still agendas and all that.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2008/05/on-lisbon-incomprehensibility/comment-page-1/#comment-64441</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 21:35:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/?p=3130#comment-64441</guid>
		<description>Funny enough Gerry Adams was on the television today confirming the readability of the Lisbon Treaty and suggesting that the &quot;unreadable&quot; myth was being put out there by the &#039;Yes&#039; camp to discourage voters from reading the text and, instead, simply taking their word for it.

I think this is an example of what&#039;s really putting voters off - both sides are saying whatever they can to advance their argument even if it contradicts reality or other things they&#039;ve said.

Everyone with half a brain knows that the threat of Ireland being booted out of the EU if we reject the treaty is scaremongering - likewise the same logical people know that accepting the treaty won&#039;t mean the end of Ireland as a free nation. The problem is that with these distractions in play there&#039;s very little else they do know about the things that matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny enough Gerry Adams was on the television today confirming the readability of the Lisbon Treaty and suggesting that the &#8220;unreadable&#8221; myth was being put out there by the &#8216;Yes&#8217; camp to discourage voters from reading the text and, instead, simply taking their word for it.</p>
<p>I think this is an example of what&#8217;s really putting voters off &#8211; both sides are saying whatever they can to advance their argument even if it contradicts reality or other things they&#8217;ve said.</p>
<p>Everyone with half a brain knows that the threat of Ireland being booted out of the EU if we reject the treaty is scaremongering &#8211; likewise the same logical people know that accepting the treaty won&#8217;t mean the end of Ireland as a free nation. The problem is that with these distractions in play there&#8217;s very little else they do know about the things that matter.</p>
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