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	<title>Comments on: Elitism</title>
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	<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/elitism/</link>
	<description>Coverage of Irish Politics, News and Current Affairs</description>
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		<title>By: copernicus</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/elitism/comment-page-1/#comment-51290</link>
		<dc:creator>copernicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 15:42:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/05/elitism/#comment-51290</guid>
		<description>&quot;I was not the one relating Shannon to the triple lock in the first place in fairness &quot;

That was people&#039;s point, Simon.  You weren&#039;t able to make the leap to see that your point that open disagreement on the Triple Lock among the Opposition does not (as you think) bolster the Government&#039;s cynical defence policies.

Honest disagreement versus cynical manipulation and obscuring of the truth, that was what undermined your original politically illiterate point.  And as usual, you completely missed and continue to completely miss it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I was not the one relating Shannon to the triple lock in the first place in fairness &#8221;</p>
<p>That was people&#8217;s point, Simon.  You weren&#8217;t able to make the leap to see that your point that open disagreement on the Triple Lock among the Opposition does not (as you think) bolster the Government&#8217;s cynical defence policies.</p>
<p>Honest disagreement versus cynical manipulation and obscuring of the truth, that was what undermined your original politically illiterate point.  And as usual, you completely missed and continue to completely miss it.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/elitism/comment-page-1/#comment-51267</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 09:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/05/elitism/#comment-51267</guid>
		<description>John I did actually reply to down the bottom of the thread and agreed with you (you were one of the exceptions in the thread of course thank you) . But my point was that not many people in the rainbow would also agree with Fine Gael&#039;s stance on the triple lock. Hence why I said would you vote for this etc etc. I think only one or two people realised you could just answer yes to those questions.

Well John I was not the one relating Shannon to the triple lock in the first place in fairness :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John I did actually reply to down the bottom of the thread and agreed with you (you were one of the exceptions in the thread of course thank you) . But my point was that not many people in the rainbow would also agree with Fine Gael&#8217;s stance on the triple lock. Hence why I said would you vote for this etc etc. I think only one or two people realised you could just answer yes to those questions.</p>
<p>Well John I was not the one relating Shannon to the triple lock in the first place in fairness <img src='http://www.irishelection.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: John Carroll</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/elitism/comment-page-1/#comment-51261</link>
		<dc:creator>John Carroll</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 08:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/05/elitism/#comment-51261</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Basically I outlined various policies of the rainbow. Now the post got 45 replies over most of them not actually dealing with any of my points just throwing insults at me (exceptions of course). To me that is attributed to the smug elitism that the left suffers from.&lt;/i&gt;

I raised a query on that thread which was fairly pertinent to the issue of the Triple Lock, and given that the Triple Lock has raised its head on this thread, then I&#039;ll raise it again:

&lt;i&gt;do you really believe that the PRC should have a veteo over this country’s military affairs?

Care to offer a defence for Macedonia?&lt;/i&gt;

In addition to which, if you wish to square the use of Shannon  with the Triple Lock (which is a bit illogical given what the Triple Lock relates to, but heh!)then you have to have a resolution which permitted the war in the first place. 1637 would only be valid as an attempt to square that circle, if the use of Shannon was subsequent to 163</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Basically I outlined various policies of the rainbow. Now the post got 45 replies over most of them not actually dealing with any of my points just throwing insults at me (exceptions of course). To me that is attributed to the smug elitism that the left suffers from.</i></p>
<p>I raised a query on that thread which was fairly pertinent to the issue of the Triple Lock, and given that the Triple Lock has raised its head on this thread, then I&#8217;ll raise it again:</p>
<p><i>do you really believe that the PRC should have a veteo over this country’s military affairs?</p>
<p>Care to offer a defence for Macedonia?</i></p>
<p>In addition to which, if you wish to square the use of Shannon  with the Triple Lock (which is a bit illogical given what the Triple Lock relates to, but heh!)then you have to have a resolution which permitted the war in the first place. 1637 would only be valid as an attempt to square that circle, if the use of Shannon was subsequent to 163</p>
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		<title>By: copernicus</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/elitism/comment-page-1/#comment-51253</link>
		<dc:creator>copernicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 02:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/05/elitism/#comment-51253</guid>
		<description>Where do you get off saying I don&#039;t respect anyone who doesn&#039;t agree with me? A typical nonsensical leap for you.  I never said Tom insulted you by the way. Again, what the are you talking about?

You&#039;re a cheeky git Simon and an absolute hypocrite.  Sorry I&#039;m not sufficiently &quot;delightful&quot; about the Irish people. Of course, one of this country&#039;s biggest problems is its insistence that its delicate sense of self must not be affronted in any way no matter how disgracefully it behaves.

You&#039;ve done an amazing job on this site over the last week or two, but you don&#039;t know squat about politics, ideas or the people of this country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where do you get off saying I don&#8217;t respect anyone who doesn&#8217;t agree with me? A typical nonsensical leap for you.  I never said Tom insulted you by the way. Again, what the are you talking about?</p>
<p>You&#8217;re a cheeky git Simon and an absolute hypocrite.  Sorry I&#8217;m not sufficiently &#8220;delightful&#8221; about the Irish people. Of course, one of this country&#8217;s biggest problems is its insistence that its delicate sense of self must not be affronted in any way no matter how disgracefully it behaves.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve done an amazing job on this site over the last week or two, but you don&#8217;t know squat about politics, ideas or the people of this country.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/elitism/comment-page-1/#comment-51252</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 01:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/05/elitism/#comment-51252</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Copernicus you have again missed my point you said that I said Tom made a personal insult against me which I did not. I said nothing of the sort did you actually read what I said?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Then you precede to go on about Shannon my point was Fine Gael are against the triple lock. He went on about Shannon that was not the point that was dodging the point. Which I said. Indeed you are totally dodging that point as well. You have yet to point to an example where I said a person was attacking me and not the point when they were dealing with a point. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Now on the point of child abuse.That girl said &quot;When people wonder how sexual abuse can thrive in the 21st century I will point them to the results of this election&quot;.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And you went then on about Michael Woods and compensation of the church and yadda yadda. The point of the post was not that this government paid the compensated the church. Which I have posted about on the blog if you cared to actually read what I write. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But the same culture of silence that surrounded the abuse of children is the same culture that all the people who vote Fianna Fail have. As if not informing on child being rapped is morally equal to voting Willie O&#039;Dea. It is not and it is absolutely terrible to suggest that their is any link to that.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Which is an entirely different point to them supporting a government that paid out potentially 15 billion to clerical sex abuse. (Which considering they were state schools the state is somewhat responsible for). Which by they way was not mentioned at all in That Girls post and only now are you try to spin that into the debate. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The problem is copernicus you don&#039;t respect anyone who doesn&#039;t agree with you. On your own blog you said &quot;The Irish electorate is so thick and cowardly&quot; why because you disagree with them. Which is a delightful way to call your fellow citizens. So would I be right in suggesting that you see yourself as the opposite i.e. intelligent and brave. Do you think that you are more intelligent and your opinion deserving of more respect then the 41% of the people in this country? That to me is elitist. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But I will leave you be copericus I was a bit rash even though suggesting that voting for a party is a kin to looking past child abuse is horrendous. That 41% of the population would let a priest violate a child because sure they vote Fianna Fail is idiotic I realise your hurting and a bit emotional and should have been more caring about your feelings.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Good night and good luck.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Copernicus you have again missed my point you said that I said Tom made a personal insult against me which I did not. I said nothing of the sort did you actually read what I said?</p>
<p>Then you precede to go on about Shannon my point was Fine Gael are against the triple lock. He went on about Shannon that was not the point that was dodging the point. Which I said. Indeed you are totally dodging that point as well. You have yet to point to an example where I said a person was attacking me and not the point when they were dealing with a point. </p>
<p>Now on the point of child abuse.That girl said &#8220;When people wonder how sexual abuse can thrive in the 21st century I will point them to the results of this election&#8221;.</p>
<p>And you went then on about Michael Woods and compensation of the church and yadda yadda. The point of the post was not that this government paid the compensated the church. Which I have posted about on the blog if you cared to actually read what I write. </p>
<p>But the same culture of silence that surrounded the abuse of children is the same culture that all the people who vote Fianna Fail have. As if not informing on child being rapped is morally equal to voting Willie O&#8217;Dea. It is not and it is absolutely terrible to suggest that their is any link to that.  </p>
<p>Which is an entirely different point to them supporting a government that paid out potentially 15 billion to clerical sex abuse. (Which considering they were state schools the state is somewhat responsible for). Which by they way was not mentioned at all in That Girls post and only now are you try to spin that into the debate. </p>
<p>The problem is copernicus you don&#8217;t respect anyone who doesn&#8217;t agree with you. On your own blog you said &#8220;The Irish electorate is so thick and cowardly&#8221; why because you disagree with them. Which is a delightful way to call your fellow citizens. So would I be right in suggesting that you see yourself as the opposite i.e. intelligent and brave. Do you think that you are more intelligent and your opinion deserving of more respect then the 41% of the people in this country? That to me is elitist. </p>
<p>But I will leave you be copericus I was a bit rash even though suggesting that voting for a party is a kin to looking past child abuse is horrendous. That 41% of the population would let a priest violate a child because sure they vote Fianna Fail is idiotic I realise your hurting and a bit emotional and should have been more caring about your feelings.  </p>
<p>Good night and good luck.</p>
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		<title>By: copernicus</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/elitism/comment-page-1/#comment-51250</link>
		<dc:creator>copernicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 00:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/05/elitism/#comment-51250</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s great Simon that you googled up some info on the Triple Lock.  Sadly, you&#039;ve completely missed the point.  No one said we were breaking the Triple Lock.  If you actually took the time to read and absorb the comments which were directed at you, you&#039;d realise that what was said was that an appeal to the Triple Lock does nothing to boost the neutrality credentials of a Government which allows the US Army to cycle its men and materiél through Shannon and which turns a blind eye to rendition flights.

I note you still have nothing to say on any of the other points, not the least of which related to the outrageous, politically illiterate title of your post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s great Simon that you googled up some info on the Triple Lock.  Sadly, you&#8217;ve completely missed the point.  No one said we were breaking the Triple Lock.  If you actually took the time to read and absorb the comments which were directed at you, you&#8217;d realise that what was said was that an appeal to the Triple Lock does nothing to boost the neutrality credentials of a Government which allows the US Army to cycle its men and materiél through Shannon and which turns a blind eye to rendition flights.</p>
<p>I note you still have nothing to say on any of the other points, not the least of which related to the outrageous, politically illiterate title of your post.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Boru</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/elitism/comment-page-1/#comment-51249</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Boru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 00:17:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/05/elitism/#comment-51249</guid>
		<description>As a PD I hope we can salvage something from this. At least we still have TDs unlike the Socialist Party. Harney would have given us a better result than you got. I think there are a lot of caricatures about our party circulating in the  media which we need to counteract. I think the result was not so much a verdict on our policies - many of which have been poached by our rivals and FF - but our leader who lacked the common tough, was seen as negative and polarising, and was always getting demonised in the media. Harney found herself in meltdown territory in 1997 with a loss of 6 seats from 1992. She recovered the party&#039;s fortunes in 2002 and she might be able to do so again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a PD I hope we can salvage something from this. At least we still have TDs unlike the Socialist Party. Harney would have given us a better result than you got. I think there are a lot of caricatures about our party circulating in the  media which we need to counteract. I think the result was not so much a verdict on our policies &#8211; many of which have been poached by our rivals and FF &#8211; but our leader who lacked the common tough, was seen as negative and polarising, and was always getting demonised in the media. Harney found herself in meltdown territory in 1997 with a loss of 6 seats from 1992. She recovered the party&#8217;s fortunes in 2002 and she might be able to do so again.</p>
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		<title>By: Twenty Major</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/elitism/comment-page-1/#comment-51232</link>
		<dc:creator>Twenty Major</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 May 2007 20:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/05/elitism/#comment-51232</guid>
		<description>Simon, what are you on about?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon, what are you on about?</p>
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		<title>By: Fergal</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/elitism/comment-page-1/#comment-51229</link>
		<dc:creator>Fergal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 May 2007 19:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/05/elitism/#comment-51229</guid>
		<description>A dishonest and disingenuous post. If Pat Rabitte had gone on tv and announced that the Irish people are all cunts, then you might have a point. But Twenty (a) does not represent the Irish left (b) may not, for all I know, belong to the Irish left, (c) calls the people of Ireland cunts on a daily basis anyway. To act as if this was somehow part of a contempt for the electorate by the left as a whole is cheap and dishonest. You might as well say that your own posts are symptomatic of the PDs contempt for punctuation.

The democracy for which you profess your love includes the right to call people cunts if you feel like it. No opinion is entitled to automatic respect, no matter how many people share it. There is absulutely no requirement to do anything other than accept the decision of the majority. You don&#039;t have to like it, or even respect it - just accept it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A dishonest and disingenuous post. If Pat Rabitte had gone on tv and announced that the Irish people are all cunts, then you might have a point. But Twenty (a) does not represent the Irish left (b) may not, for all I know, belong to the Irish left, (c) calls the people of Ireland cunts on a daily basis anyway. To act as if this was somehow part of a contempt for the electorate by the left as a whole is cheap and dishonest. You might as well say that your own posts are symptomatic of the PDs contempt for punctuation.</p>
<p>The democracy for which you profess your love includes the right to call people cunts if you feel like it. No opinion is entitled to automatic respect, no matter how many people share it. There is absulutely no requirement to do anything other than accept the decision of the majority. You don&#8217;t have to like it, or even respect it &#8211; just accept it.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/elitism/comment-page-1/#comment-51227</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 May 2007 19:16:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.irishelection.com/05/elitism/#comment-51227</guid>
		<description>By the way just incase anyone mis-interpreted my post. I was not calling the left elitist just people who look down on people who decided to vote Fianna Fail and refer to them as stupid, greedy and colludors in child abuse. I know many people who don&#039;t do that many who post on this blog and to para-phrase ross calmly and constructive make their points and let the people decided and accept their decisions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way just incase anyone mis-interpreted my post. I was not calling the left elitist just people who look down on people who decided to vote Fianna Fail and refer to them as stupid, greedy and colludors in child abuse. I know many people who don&#8217;t do that many who post on this blog and to para-phrase ross calmly and constructive make their points and let the people decided and accept their decisions.</p>
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