Comments on: Directing the Public’s Ire, What is an Opposition to Do? http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/ Coverage of Irish Politics, News and Current Affairs Thu, 09 Feb 2012 19:43:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.5 By: Cian http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/comment-page-1/#comment-48945 Cian Mon, 07 May 2007 01:50:55 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/#comment-48945 Ben and WBS, I agree by that they only way to challenge the Taoiseach is by proxy or by some roundabout manner. The opposition dont appear to trust their own ability to make it stick, though McDowell has given them a big bright arse to kick if they desire it. I think there is a bit of something in this WBS, it is very sticky and questions at present only have a few answers in theory (many of which will cause the Taoiseach discomfort but some which are legitimate). He is not venal as you say but beyond that can we say for sure what he is? I am not sure. I think your distinction is well made though, these days it is the quality of your answer and your method of answering it that is as important as your act (since your act is excused by the ethic of the time). His response is becoming as damning as any hypothetical act he is being accused of. Ben and WBS, I agree by that they only way to challenge the Taoiseach is by proxy or by some roundabout manner. The opposition dont appear to trust their own ability to make it stick, though McDowell has given them a big bright arse to kick if they desire it.

I think there is a bit of something in this WBS, it is very sticky and questions at present only have a few answers in theory (many of which will cause the Taoiseach discomfort but some which are legitimate). He is not venal as you say but beyond that can we say for sure what he is? I am not sure.

I think your distinction is well made though, these days it is the quality of your answer and your method of answering it that is as important as your act (since your act is excused by the ethic of the time). His response is becoming as damning as any hypothetical act he is being accused of.

]]> By: Cui bono at Irish Election http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/comment-page-1/#comment-48939 Cui bono at Irish Election Sun, 06 May 2007 22:29:40 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/#comment-48939 [...] party and would be looking at taking Fianna Fail votes. So really can you look much beyond them? As Cian mentioned the last time that they went after Bertie they lost heavily and alot of work was needed to build them back up. [...] [...] party and would be looking at taking Fianna Fail votes. So really can you look much beyond them? As Cian mentioned the last time that they went after Bertie they lost heavily and alot of work was needed to build them back up. [...]

]]> By: Paul http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/comment-page-1/#comment-48933 Paul Sun, 06 May 2007 19:18:16 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/#comment-48933 This is the second time in a few short months that McDowell has huffed and puffed about standards in public office, made all the noises about leaving FF - and then backed down. If Liz O'Donnell had any moral backbone (as McDowell, Harney and Parlon Country do not) she should get out of there now. Fiona O'Malley must find it difficult to look Daddy in the face these days, she too should abandon the sinking ship (Dad Des must be absolutely sick at how his party, founded on the word, "integrity" has disintegrated). And CJ would have been proud of Bertie. This is the second time in a few short months that McDowell has huffed and puffed about standards in public office, made all the noises about leaving FF – and then backed down. If Liz O’Donnell had any moral backbone (as McDowell, Harney and Parlon Country do not) she should get out of there now. Fiona O’Malley must find it difficult to look Daddy in the face these days, she too should abandon the sinking ship (Dad Des must be absolutely sick at how his party, founded on the word, “integrity” has disintegrated). And CJ would have been proud of Bertie.

]]> By: Bertiegate Redux... General Election 2007, and a weird sense of deja vu... « The Cedar Lounge Revolution http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/comment-page-1/#comment-48925 Bertiegate Redux... General Election 2007, and a weird sense of deja vu... « The Cedar Lounge Revolution Sun, 06 May 2007 17:48:42 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/#comment-48925 [...] Cian has an impressive analysis of the travails of the opposition on Irish Election and it’s worth reflecting on just how coy Kenny and Rabbitte have become on this issue, to the point of absurdity given that it is Michael McDowell who is the one to have demanded clarification from the Taoiseach. Perhaps they are gliding above all this messy fray, but… by attempting to ignore the story they also seem somewhat detached from the central issue of the campaign. [...] [...] Cian has an impressive analysis of the travails of the opposition on Irish Election and it’s worth reflecting on just how coy Kenny and Rabbitte have become on this issue, to the point of absurdity given that it is Michael McDowell who is the one to have demanded clarification from the Taoiseach. Perhaps they are gliding above all this messy fray, but… by attempting to ignore the story they also seem somewhat detached from the central issue of the campaign. [...]

]]> By: Anonymoose http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/comment-page-1/#comment-48923 Anonymoose Sun, 06 May 2007 17:23:13 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/#comment-48923 Well what are the opposition to do? The only place they can even hope to have the opportunity to call the Taoiseach to account is in the Dail Chamber, or in the tribunals. And both are suspended until after the election. So all they can do is say that they are worried about the implications of media reports on the state of the Taoiseach's finances and that it is in the best interest of the state that Bertie Ahern make a full public statement to answer allegations arising from those reports. And other than that get on with the election. Well what are the opposition to do?

The only place they can even hope to have the opportunity to call the Taoiseach to account is in the Dail Chamber, or in the tribunals. And both are suspended until after the election.

So all they can do is say that they are worried about the implications of media reports on the state of the Taoiseach’s finances and that it is in the best interest of the state that Bertie Ahern make a full public statement to answer allegations arising from those reports. And other than that get on with the election.

]]> By: WorldbyStorm http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/comment-page-1/#comment-48921 WorldbyStorm Sun, 06 May 2007 16:37:33 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/#comment-48921 I'd second what Ben said. One of the best pieces on the issue so far. The problem is wildmind that the situation isn't quite as you paint it. Ahern took monies at a time when the regulations on such things were much less clear cut than they are today. I agree that he shouldn't have on principle, but that's a different issue. He can say that what he did might have been incorrect but it's wasn't illegal and that gave him wriggle room last year. He can also, hand on heart, say the situation is completely different today etc etc. And the truth is that it is. Inappropriate funding of politics is nowhere near what it was like in the 1980s. A further complication is that this appears to cut into aspects of his personal life. Now, we all will have a view on how much he should withhold or reveal and I would go for the latter option, but to him it seems to be a situation where he simply doesn't want to say stuff that he should in order to help his case. I don't personally think he's terribly venal, but I think he has a huge inability to understand that in contemporary politics, particularly at his level this sort of response is worse than the failings he has been accused of and if I were hte opposition I think that's the line I'd be taking, that a man who wants to be Taoiseach for a third time simply doesn't realise his responsibilities to the public. I’d second what Ben said. One of the best pieces on the issue so far.

The problem is wildmind that the situation isn’t quite as you paint it. Ahern took monies at a time when the regulations on such things were much less clear cut than they are today. I agree that he shouldn’t have on principle, but that’s a different issue. He can say that what he did might have been incorrect but it’s wasn’t illegal and that gave him wriggle room last year. He can also, hand on heart, say the situation is completely different today etc etc. And the truth is that it is. Inappropriate funding of politics is nowhere near what it was like in the 1980s. A further complication is that this appears to cut into aspects of his personal life. Now, we all will have a view on how much he should withhold or reveal and I would go for the latter option, but to him it seems to be a situation where he simply doesn’t want to say stuff that he should in order to help his case. I don’t personally think he’s terribly venal, but I think he has a huge inability to understand that in contemporary politics, particularly at his level this sort of response is worse than the failings he has been accused of and if I were hte opposition I think that’s the line I’d be taking, that a man who wants to be Taoiseach for a third time simply doesn’t realise his responsibilities to the public.

]]> By: Ben http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/comment-page-1/#comment-48919 Ben Sun, 06 May 2007 16:21:21 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/#comment-48919 Great article. The opposition's time to attack Bertie on this issue was eight months ago. Because they messed that one up, there is no point in attacking him now. The issues are Health, infastructure, jobs, economy, and policing. People want an alternative government, you have got to present one to them. furthermore, Fianna Fail's strategy of putting Bertie's face on election posters in every constituency is the best gift they could have given to the opposition. now, everytime you see that little cherub, you think Bertiegate. There is no need to attack him - well, no need to make an attack on Bertie a core strategy. The opposition's approach - especially Rabbitte's approach - of attacking Fianna Fáil's weak ministerial flank was the best way of dealing with Bertie, and it still is. I've made the argument for attacking Bertie head-on more than once, but I have to accept now that it is a vote-loser. (And I know that there's a bit of the Skibbereen Eagle keeping its eye on the Czar about bloggers handing out free advice). Again the main issues in this country are Health and public services - education, policing, infastructure. These are the people's concerns before Bertiegate. They are the concerns during Bertiegate. and they'll be the people's concerns after Bertiegate. Great article. The opposition’s time to attack Bertie on this issue was eight months ago. Because they messed that one up, there is no point in attacking him now. The issues are Health, infastructure, jobs, economy, and policing. People want an alternative government, you have got to present one to them.
furthermore, Fianna Fail’s strategy of putting Bertie’s face on election posters in every constituency is the best gift they could have given to the opposition. now, everytime you see that little cherub, you think Bertiegate. There is no need to attack him – well, no need to make an attack on Bertie a core strategy.
The opposition’s approach – especially Rabbitte’s approach – of attacking Fianna Fáil’s weak ministerial flank was the best way of dealing with Bertie, and it still is.
I’ve made the argument for attacking Bertie head-on more than once, but I have to accept now that it is a vote-loser. (And I know that there’s a bit of the Skibbereen Eagle keeping its eye on the Czar about bloggers handing out free advice).
Again the main issues in this country are Health and public services – education, policing, infastructure.
These are the people’s concerns before Bertiegate. They are the concerns during Bertiegate. and they’ll be the people’s concerns after Bertiegate.

]]> By: Cian http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/comment-page-1/#comment-48917 Cian Sun, 06 May 2007 16:01:50 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/#comment-48917 he admitted that last october however, it isn't a crime to take money from business men. The questions are over the legality of these monies and that is a long way from resolution you are correct though, the ironic effect of tribunals has been to defer political reform until after their conclusion. he admitted that last october however, it isn’t a crime to take money from business men. The questions are over the legality of these monies and that is a long way from resolution

you are correct though, the ironic effect of tribunals has been to defer political reform until after their conclusion.

]]> By: wildmind http://www.irishelection.com/2007/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/comment-page-1/#comment-48916 wildmind Sun, 06 May 2007 15:53:40 +0000 http://www.irishelection.com/05/directing-the-publics-ire-what-is-an-opposition-to-do/#comment-48916 This is actually bigger than party politics. It is the question that has been haunting Irish politics for a quarter of a century now. It is about the extent to which our democratic process has been turned rotten by big business. If politics means anything at all, the other parties should follow the Greens example and state the obvious; BERTIE AHERN WAS TAKING MONEY FROM BUSINESSMEN WHILE MINISTER FOR FINANCE. This is actually bigger than party politics. It is the question that has been haunting Irish politics for a quarter of a century now.

It is about the extent to which our democratic process has been turned rotten by big business.

If politics means anything at all, the other parties should follow the Greens example and state the obvious; BERTIE AHERN WAS TAKING MONEY FROM BUSINESSMEN WHILE MINISTER FOR FINANCE.

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