Head over to our T
Green Day in Ireland
Read more about: Green Party 
Why the Greens will never be a major player in Irish politics
In a manner of speaking, I’m a supporter of the Green Party. I think that the more power they have, the better off we’ll be. The Green Party’s problem though, is that I, and many like me, will never vote for them.
I live in rural Ireland. Rural Ireland is not to be confused with the towns and ‘villages’ that lie around the Dublin commuter belt. I live in the ‘real’ rural Ireland, the rural Ireland where farming is important, where people know each other (and each other’s business) and where going to mass is still something of a social event. I don’t think that I’ve ever met a Green who understood that world.
Don’t believe me? Then look at the Green Party’s housing policy.
“We believe that the best way to maintain and increase population numbers in rural areas – based on the evidence of the recent census results is to support villages, as villages have held their population better than scattered communities in the open countryside. Areas of population loss as indicated by CLAR maps match areas with poor or non-existent village and town structure. This lack of village structure, which could have been the focus for new service jobs or small industries, is the main reason these areas suffered more population loss than others. Therefore, we believe that the best way to address population loss in weak areas is to create new villages or village clusters and to actively prevent further dispersal of settlement.”
This excerpt is representative of Green Party thinking. It is also representative of a D4 mentality. There is a world of difference between living in a village and living in the country but the Green Party does not recognise this. It thinks that rural living is simply the opposite of city living. To call it a simplification would be an understatement.
According to the Green party, we should create villages and village clusters because villages hold their numbers better than “scattered communities”. What the Greens do not understand is that for rural dwellers, the concern is not that rural communities, be they scattered or based around a village, will decline, but that they will not be able to live in the communities that they grew up in. Rural living is not our goal, it is simply a side effect.
You can see this when you examine the low take up of local authority housing in villages. The Greens explain this low take up as a result of a negative perception of villages, but to me, it seems more likely that the government simply misinterpreted the populace’s desires. Somebody living in a rural area (not a village) of South Roscommon does not want to move to a local authority housing estate on the outskirts of a village in North Roscommon. Why would they? It would be as a great an adjustment as moving to a large town or even a city. I have lived in towns and cities and I know that if I cannot build my home in my own community, then I would as soon live in a town or a city as move to a generic housing estate on the fringes of a village that is not part of my community.
Ciaran Cuff, writing in the Irish Independent in 2004 claimed that ‘We [the Green Party] want to make it easier for people who belong in the countryside to live there’. The problem is that according to the Green Party, the only people who belong in rural areas are Farmers, Teachers and Gardai. Apparently, I don’t belong in my community, because I work in a nearby town. The attitude of many in similar situations to my own is one of contempt towards the Green Party. Who do they think they are to say that we do not belong in the communities where we were born and raised, communities that they do not understand and probably cannot understand.
The Green Party claims that it is wrong to claim that ‘scattered rural housing is part of our heritage and should be facilitated, not restricted’ because ‘before the famine, in 1841, census figures show that about 90% of the population lived in rural areas’ but that ‘the first ordnance survey map dating from the time, shows people did not live in scattered single rural houses but in ‘farm villages’ or clachans’.
Even leaving aside the fact that the Greens ignore the penal laws in their analysis of the 1841 rural housing situation, the argument remains ridiculous and shows just how disconnected the party is from Rural Ireland(TM). From the house where I grew up, I could see the homes that my father, grandfather, grand-uncle and great-grandfather grew up and lived in. These houses were ‘one off developments’ and part of a pattern of scatter rural housing. Does Ciaran Cuffe really want to tell me that scattered one-off rural housing is not part of my heritage? Who is he to tell me that I do not ‘belong’ here?
If he wishes to go back to pre-famine times to decide what constitutes part of her heritage, perhaps he should review the statistics in regards the number of motor cars in Dublin. Does anybody really think that the Green Party will propose a ban on private transport in Dublin city?
Another example would be that of travellers. Many of the traveller clans only came into existence at after the famine. Yet, the Green Party recognises Traveller groups’ rights to pursue their traditional lifestyle, however unhealthy and environmentally unfriendly it may be.
So why the double standards?
The problem is that the Green Party can’t see the inconsistency. Their housing policy is only a symptom a more serious underlying problem. It’s a party whose leadership and membership are largely urban and whose ideology has not been properly adapted for Irish society. If the Green Party ever wants to escapes the fringes of Irish political life, then it will have to try to understand life outside of the Dublin commuter belt. Until it changes, it can forget about increasing its support base in rural areas and becoming a major player in Irish politics.
I’m all for your right to live in the country as long as you’re willing to pay for it. Why should urban dwellers subsidise rural dwellers when it comes to paying for services such as electricity and telecommunications?
By the way, I agree with your analysis of the Green Party’s relationship with rural Ireland. I’m not sure yet if it’s a bigger problem for the Green Party or for rural Ireland.
I guess you want the Green Party to move closer to the Fianna Fáil policy of ‘killing rural Ireland with kindness’. For as long as I can remember there has been net migration from rural areas to urban areas. One-off housing hasn’t done much to stem the tide beyond maintaining the status quo for the priviliged and the connected.
I don’t know anything about urban dwellers subsidising rural dwellers – as far as I reclal when I was growing up we were paying rhe same rates of tax as everyone else but had awful and neglected roads, no rubbish pick up, no hospital within thirty minutes drive, no ambulance service etc… In other words very often the subsidisation was the other way around…
Anyway excellent post – it seems ridiculous that the relationship between the greens and the country is so weak, but you’re right to say that it is. I’d like to see a Green response to these points actually. I reckon it would help a lot of us country folk to decide how to vote.
I don’t know anything about urban dwellers subsidising rural dwellers
I was referring to the U.S.O. The other issues you raise are the side effects of low-density population dispersal. To counteract them requires that high density population centres subsidize sparsly populated areas. It’s all about economies of scale. We can’t have an A E at every crossroads.
The opinion most people in the countryside I hear of the green party is that they want to ruin their way of life. They see the objections of cty people to one off housing as saying that people can not ruin the view of the countryside when people from the cities go for a walk on a weekend. That they want people to mmove out of the countryside in to apartment complex’s. If the green party want to expand and takes seats in Clare for instance that is what they have to counter.
It is not a coincedence that every Green TD is from an urban constituency.
I’m all for your right to live in the country as long as you’re willing to pay for it. Why should urban dwellers subsidise rural dwellers when it comes to paying for services such as electricity and telecommunications?
I don’t have children. Why should my taxes subsidise schools or childcare?
I’m all for people’s right to reproduce as long as they’re willing to pay for it.
I’m not sick. Why should my taxes subsidise hospitals or medical care?
I’m all for people’s right to be sick as long as they’re willing to pay for it.
Do you think that our taxes are not going to pay for facilities for urban dwellers (public transport, infrastructure, etc.)?
I’m not sure yet if it’s a bigger problem for the Green Party or for rural Ireland.
Last time I checked, it was the electorate who voted for politicians and not the other way round.
“After the uprising of the 17th of June
The secretary of the Writers Union
Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
In which one could read that the People
Had forfeited the confidence of the Government
Which it could only retrieve
By a redoubled effort.
Would it then not really be simpler
If the Government dissolved the people
And elected another?”
Bertolt Brecht
Just to make it clear, my comments about children and sick people are not to be taken literally.
Unfortunately, WordPress doesn’t seem to be able to handle mock tags such as and .
Paddy,
I understand the point relating to subsidising schools and hospitals in that it does bring greater good to scociety. I’m not sure if this argument extends to subsidising telephone and esb installation for those who choose to live in the countryside. I think living in the countryside is a privilege rather than a right and I’m not sure about the merits of subsidising it.
“Would it then not really be simpler
If the Government dissolved the people
And elected another?”
Unfortunately this seems to be what’s happening in relation to rural Ireland given the migration to the cities. I think government policy up to now has largely failed rural Ireland by giving the people the line they want to hear rather than providing them with the leadership to make their communities viable.
For the mock tags, I think it might work if you use >_remove for gt; and <_remove for lt; after removing the _remove . I’m just testing this so it probably doesn’t work. Hopefully, you won’t have much need to use the mock tags on me in future
.
Well that didn’t really work out. Let’s try this: <sarcasm> which is lt; sarcasm > without the spaces.
I think living in the countryside is a privilege rather than a right and I’m not sure about the merits of subsidising it.
“Privilege”? I was born and brought up in the depths of the countryside. I can remember the task of going to a water-pump to fill buckets of water for drinking purposes – the rainwater that we collected in barrels could be used for washing but wasn’t drinkable. We finally got running water and indoor plumbing when I was twelve, thanks to a pump using the electricity that you begrudge us the use of. (Incidentally, I’m not talking about the days of de Valera’s comely maidens – I’m in my thirties.) Our taxes, like everyone else’s taxes at the time, were going to subsidise the electrification of the DART line for the benefit of the wealthiest, genuinely most privileged, parts of Dublin.
Do you even realise how arrogant and condescending your statements are?
Could we have a POLITICAL discussion?
The general questions turn on notions of equality and citizenship. Regardless of cost and location, what public services should a citizen get?
On the less serious question, there really is no mystery as to why country people should dislike the Greens. The Green view of a rural landscape is equivalent to a Disney view of reality. Everything should look tidy and green: no cows, no pigs, no shite, no reality. It’s the same in the cities: no disorder, no dogs, no shite, no reality. Definitely NO FUN!
Economic development and employment growth has been driven by urbanisation and urban areas. This has led to a big imbalance between the regions especially between Dublin and the BMW. In order to address this imbalance we need larger centres of population in the regions so that we can create employment and sustainable, growing communities in them ( I realise there’s a bit of chicken-and-egg in there).
We will not achieve this with low-density widely dispersed housing. This fact is accepted by all parties, not just the Greens. It’s part of the NSS and it’s government policy. The only real difference between Government policy and the Greens is that the government offers some concessions to one-off housing in their locals-only policy. And of course Fianna Fáil spin it in such a way that it seems that they really love the country and it’s all the fault of Bord Pleanala, an Taisce, the Greens or some other ‘anti-rural’ group.
Paddy, argue the issue and not the person and then we might be able to have a useful discussion. You don’t have a monopoly on the experience of growing up in the countryside. I was there too and I still am.
Are rustics and Dubs alike citizens? What should all citizens have?
Mark, trust me. When you live in the countryside, you pay for the “privilege”. The government doesn’t provide my community with water, we have to do that ourselves. We have the same obligations as urban dwellers in regards waste, but if we want to dispose of it legally, we’ve to put it in our cars and drive for miles. When the snow falls, we can end of waiting a couple of weeks to be reconnected to the grid. Let’s not even talk about things like education, health and transport.
We pay equal taxes, but get third class levels of service. And you wonder why there is migration toward urban areas?
The Green Party is a party that emphasises preserving the environment so I can understand their objection to rural housing. However, the Green Party takes a more pragmatic approach to environmental issues in urban areas. For instance, they have never suggested banning the use of private cars in urban areas, even though these areas are serviced by public transport.
What’s the difference? Why the inconsistency? Surely, if saving the environment is the Green Party’s number one goal, then they why is it that they don’t press for the elimination of all cultural practices that harm the environment?
Heck why don’t they just turn Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick into mini-Coruscants, give everybody a window box and leave the countryside free from pesky humans.
Then there is the Green Party’s position on traveller settlements. The Green’s don’t object to travellers practicing their way of life. They want to accommodate it. In that case, the Green’s recognise the rights of Irish citizens to carry on their cultural heritage, so why not the people of rural Ireland?
Perhaps the Green Party’s policy is right about rural Ireland. That doesn’t change the fact that they have a problem with consistency and it certainly doesn’t change the fact that their rural policy will prevent them from gaining a significant share of seats in the Dail.
The Green policy crosses a line. If you want to encourage rural dwellers to move to urban areas, fine. But when you force them to leave their homes and communities, that’s not acceptable.
Mark
‘We will not achieve this with low-density widely dispersed housing. This fact is accepted by all parties, not just the Greens. It’s part of the NSS and it’s government policy.’
That is not my reading of the National Spatial strategy and the Sustainable Rural Housing Guidelines. The statutory Development Plans of the local planning authorities, plus the regional planning guidelines, are the source of practical policy on rural housing anyway, though they are generally required to accord with national policy.
Niall,
As you say there is a premium to be paid for living in the countryside in terms of higher costs and poorer services. The issue is who picks up the tab for this. How much responsibility does government have to provide services in areas where it is inefficient to do so? If I choose to live in an area that makes less efficient use of resources should I expect the same level of support as those who choose to live in areas where resources are more efficiently used. This is what I mean when I talk in terms of rights and privileges.
We pay equal taxes, but get third class levels of service.
While it’s true that individually we are all subject to the same tax laws, in terms of regional redistribution, rural areas receive more than they contribute. As for your list of grievances relating to how bad things are in the country, which party has been responsible for government policy in this area for almost 17 of the past 20 years? A different kind of ‘green’ party I think. Their record speaks for itself. Friend of rural Ireland indeed.
As regards opinions on the Green Party, I’m not a member and not overly familiar with their policies and activities but I think you’re exaggerating and holding them accountable for things that they don’t stand for. For example:
Heck why don’t they just turn Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick into mini-Coruscants, give everybody a window box and leave the countryside free from pesky humans.
I think this is an unfair representation of the Green Party’s position on rural Ireland. It’s a flight of fantasy not far off from the rainwater collector above. It’s all great craic I’m sure but demonising the Green Party as ‘anti-rural’ is just a handy way of avoiding discussing the real problems that rural Ireland faces and doesn’t serve anyone in the long run.
By the way, I think your original post was very well observed and raises all sorts of interesting points about the future of rural Ireland (and, I suppose, the future of the Green Party, but that’s not so interesting
).
Frank,
What’s your read on chapter 5.3.2 of the NSS where it says that in regard to rural housing that it should be concentrated in villages and towns and that isolated dwellings and ribbon development ahould be discouraged? The whole thrust of the NSS is about creating centres of population with enough critical mass to be self sustaining.
Mark,
Thanks for the question. You picked a good section of the NSS to discuss. A few general points first —
the NSS tends to talk about developing critical mass of entire regions, not of individual settlements, with expanding urban economies feeding down into the seven functional regions identified in the NSS
the NSS is based on the belief that the state’s population will grow to between 4.5 and 5 million people up to 2020
the long-standing policy is for the balance between urban and rural dwellers to be maintained
the NSS policy is for balanced development both within and between regions
Following from the above, the housing density of the entire state will increase. This would not necessarily mean that higher density housing developments will be the norm. However, there are more smaller households which have not really been catered for in the housing stock previously so there will be continuing provision of more apartments.
Section 5.3.2 of the NSS, page 106 in particular, repeats the long-standing distinction between rural-generated and urban-generated demand for housing in rural areas, and addresses each one separately. But it also talks about protecting the scale and character of towns and villages, and the need for clear planning authority policies and measures to reduce the pressure for urban development. My read is that consolidation of existing towns and villages is about accommodating urban-generated housing demand in them, not rural-generated demand. This in turn would reduce pressure for urban-generated demand for housing in open countryside, consequently making it less difficult for rural-generated demand to be accommodated in the native local areas where the demand arises.
make it short!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!