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The definition of Ireland
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Here’s an issue that has surfaced briefly at various times in the Shannon-Heathrow-Belfast dispute and has now been explicitly raised by IMPACT: is Belfast in Ireland? We can probably all recall instances where one of the many usages for the two jurisdictions on the island has had a similar impact as fingernails being drawn across a blackboard but now it’s more than just terminology at stake. [UPDATED]
In a recommendation issued last February, the Labour Court said that all [Aer Lingus] management should be allowed to recruit staff in foreign bases at local pay rates.
The IMPACT trade union has written asking whether the reference in the recommendation to ‘foreign bases’ was intended to include Belfast.
They have also asked whether the Labour Court understood that the new bases could be at the expense of existing bases.
Very tricky. If the Labour Court said “Republic of Ireland”, which strictly speaking they should have, then Belfast counts as foreign. At least post Good Friday Agreement and associated constitutional amendment which redefined the national territory as the 26 counties. But then there’s the issue of intent — whether a Belfast base was contemplated — and the relocation of bases within the island. It’ll be interesting to see whether it even occurred to anyone at the time the agreement was being negotiated that Belfast was an option.
UPDATE: The issue is also being explored at Slugger.
If the Labour Court said “Republic of Ireland”, which strictly speaking they should have, then Belfast counts as foreign.
No it shouldn’t have - ‘Republic of Ireland’ is not the official name of this country; Ireland is. That’s remains the case if you consult the Irish constitution, the EU, the UN or any national or international body; the only ones that use ‘Republic of Ireland’ tend to be sporting organisations like the FAI, UEFA and FIFA - indeed even our Olympic team competes as Ireland.
Without sparking some debate over partition I think IMPACT are just trying their luck for the sake of it - Northern Ireland, as much as it may pain some people, is a foreign country - it being on the same land-mass or speaking the same language doesn’t change that fact. This is a non-issue in my opinion.
Yes, “Republic of Ireland” is only a legislative term (from 1948). But it has clarity whereas (I think) the term “Ireland” does not.
But IMPACT shouldn’t be using this as cover for having forgotten to consider the possiblity of Belfast, which is what it seems like to me.
Yes, “Republic of Ireland” is only a legislative term (from 1948). But it has clarity whereas (I think) the term “Ireland” does not.
Well Republic of Ireland is a descriptive term, really but I don’t think Ireland lacks clarity - it just gets muddled through its mis-use by a tiny minority of those who refuse to accept the political reality.
Island of Ireland or all-Ireland (as in all the Irelands combined) would describe the Irish land-mass, Ireland describes the nation that, as of 1921, does not include Belfast.
Meh.
I’ve been to Belfast more often than I’ve been Cork. I know about as many people from Ulster as I do in Munster. Definitions aside, I care as much about the prosperity of Belfast about as much as I do about the Shannon region.
Legally, at least under the Republic of Ireland’s laws, Belfast is foreign (and the IRFU apparently agrees when it suits them). I find it amusing to think that the arrogance of the southern state is one of few things that can equally piss off Unionists and Nationalists in Northern Ireland.
The Republic is not Ireland and should never have been allowed to declare itself so. Ireland is an island and the fact that a state shares (or tries/is allowed to commandeer) that name is a mistake that should be rectified. Unfortunately, since nobody thought to raise the issue way back when, the only people who can do that now are the people and/or government of the Republic of Ireland themselves; then issues like this would never arise.
I think this is a much more serious issue than one union dispute. It goes to the very core of why too many unionists have lost/forgotten/disowned any sense of Irishness, because to be Irish has, thanks in no small part to the (mis)naming of the southern state, come to be interpreted to mean Republican and/or Southern.
Beano - let’s not turn this into anything more than it is - a Union using every trick in the book to get what it wants.
There’s no doubt that the words ‘Ireland’ and ‘Irish’ have been misused by many but we’re thankfully reaching a maturity where that is changing - I think fewer and fewer do not see citizens of Northern Ireland as Irish, including those who deem themselves British too.
As for your belief that Ireland should not have been allowed name itself such, I could say the same thing about Northern Ireland, given that it is not actually the entire North of the island of Ireland.
I see no reason why a country cannot share the name of the island upon which it’s situated - there’s also no reason to suggest that the State has tried to commandeer the word; although some of its citizens, and some of Northern Ireland’s too, most certainly have.
All that said I should point out that my understanding is that in the official language of this country there is a distinction between Ireland the nation and Ireland the island - at least that’s the difference I always see between Éire and Éireann.
Beano could use the same thing with Britain mis-using the definition of the term Britain which is the term for the archipelago not the largest island. Which is actually termed albion. So really people should be Alion not british and it should be Great Albion not Great Britain. But people know what is meant when they hear the term Britain as a political entity and know it does not mean Ireland. Likewise with the term Ireland.
Also Beano I thought you would be happy that the Irish state wants to stop an airline moving to the UK protecting or own interests and not yours?
But really this has got nothing to do with north South realations. It is about a region of the state and what Adam says.
@Adam: Sorry to be a smartass, but the only difference between the two is that the former is the nominative/accusative form of the word, and the latter is the genitive of the same. Of course there’s a difference, but it’s precisely the same difference as between “Ireland” and “Ireland’s” in English.
The contrast here ought to be between Éire and Oileán na hÉireann.
Not at all, Keith - my misunderstanding which needs to be corrected!
Folks,
The problem lies with the question. The question is designed to only allow one answer. A yes or no answer, if you like. This is precisely the problenm that has been experienced in NI for several decades. Is it part of Ireland or part of Britain? As you all know, the answer could never be given in one word and the recent agreements have been plural and based on numerous issues.
So, is Belfast Irish? Part of the same country as Shannon? Well, yes and no.
The question is the problem right now, not the answer.
For foot-and-mouth disease, yes, for relocating Aer Lingus, no, for waterways, yes, for currency, no…and so on and so forth.
And it will be like that for some time to come, I guess.
My 2-cent/pence-worth.
James
Belfast is part of the United Kingdom. The majority of the people in Belfast want it to remain part of the United Kingdom. It’s time the recent converts to democracy in Sinn Fein IRA (although some of them already appearing to be adopting an al la carte interpertation of democracy) learned that democracy means doing what the majority want and the majority don’t want them.
@James: Belfast is Irish, it’s just not part of the Irish state. Pretty clear-cut. Belfast is also British, being in the UK, as JohnMac noted. There’s no contradiction between being Irish and British, in spite of what some may think.
NI is on the same land-mass as RoI, so North and South cooperate on things where it makes sense. The same thing happens with lots of sovereign states.
One little thing though: under UK and Irish law, Ireland and the UK do not consider each other ‘foreign’ nations, simply sovereign. This is part of the basis for the Common Travel Area and why any of us can, almost at the drop of a hat, relocate to the UK, and British subjects can do, and do, do the same. Isn’t politics fun!
Is Belfast British? I know that the British government jurisdiction over the region is widely recofnised, but isn’t it the UK the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? Doesn’t that suggest that Northern Ireland is distinct from Great Britain? And if it is not part of Great Britain, then how exactly is it British?
And John, the very notion of Northern Ireland being democratic is a joke. Its borders were drawn in such a way that it mocks the very notion of democracy. Craig and co took as much land as they could while maintaining a viable unionist majority against the wishes of the vast majority of people in this country. Remember the two largest counties had nationalist majorities, and the unionists turned down the notion of a nine county Ulster region of governance of the basis, and they turned down a three county Northern Ireland. That is not to say that county boundaries are the ideal basis for creating the borders of a state. It is only supposed to illustrate the problematic nature of any democratic process in Northern Ireland.