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Leaving Cert Math
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With today’s results showing that the results for Higher Level Maths are down. Everyone is talking about how this is bad and how incentives should be given for people to do math etc. The simple fact of the matter is that Math is hard. You can learn off by rote History, English pretty much every subject save Math, physics and Chemistry. Because simply put these subjects require the student to understand not simply know. You can write an essay from memory on how Bismark gave rise to World War I. But you have to understand calculus. The reason that students are avoiding these subjects is that it requires more work to understand these subjects then it does to learn off about Bismark. Thus these subjects should be rewarded more points if we want people to do them. But also most importantly we have to figure out what to do about the fact that students rely on rote learning in exams?
Obviously the reason is the points system. It is a competitive environment based solely on maximising points that is why we get rote learning. The points system is in my opinion a great system. It is utterly fair. No interviews, no influence of daddy’s cheque book just you. But the fact that an A1 in Business is as valid as an A1 in Physics in getting into a Physics degree is some what wrong (and vice versa). Points need to be weighted. If you apply for a Physics course, Physics and Math are worth double points hence it is worth your while putting your effort into the subject. Same goes for all courses. English and History should be worth double if you apply for and English and History course. The entry requirement should contain 2-3 bonus point subjects . Thus we would get people focusing there energies on the subjects that gain them the most points. (the relevant ones to their CAO choices.)
The rise in people getting higher points is also ( I don’t have access to the data if anyone does let me know) I guess correlated with the drop in results in Math. Why spend the time studying Math when that time spent at Business yields more points?
But the thing what we have to remember is this. For most people Math and Science are hard and there is no way around this. But the fact that people believe mobile masts are dangerous shows that this is a pity.
The Universities and Industry could themselves provide incentives for people doing Maths and Science for their Leaving Cert, e.g. free accommodation for year 1 (and further depending on University exams).
If the colleges get their way and fees are re-introduced in some form or another, free or reduced fees for Engineering and Science along with additional grants and scholarships should work as well.
Lastly rumor has it that a lot of people who go into teaching, particularly at primary level don’t like maths with the obvious impact on teaching time and general attitude towards the subject. Why not make a B or better in Honours Maths a necessity for Primary Teaching, or separate out maths from the rest of the primary curriculum
Why not have compulsory entry requirements for courses. Obviously points are one requirement, but its far too simplistic a system.
In the North for Example, almost all courses require the student to have taken, and have scored well, in relevant courses at secondary level.
e.g. Computer Science requires, that a Student has taken either physics/Chemistry, maths or computers at A level (minimum grade B) to even be considered.
A system like this can ensure that students are prepped for their degree course.
No point wasting time and energy on rote learning filler subjects when you could be learning and understanding something more relevant.
It also makes sure that there is a certain level of competence in the group before the Uni course begins. 1/3rd of my course dropped out before 2nd year, the points were very low and computing was popular.
You can provide points-based incentives if you want, but the biggest incentive is where a student sees themselves having a great career if they do well in science and maths.
In reality, with the exception of the top 5% of positions, people with degrees in science and maths don’t have those ’sexy’ jobs that medics and lawyers have. Nobody associates the upper middle class with scientists (ironically, many of the super-wealthy are scientists and engineers, while not too many of Ireland’s super wealthy are medics).
To a certain extent, scientists are seen to work in labs as some kind of automatons. Not too sexy for many 17 year olds. Those people that ask me about careers in biology usually want to do psychology or whale watching or forensics (dont hate them for being 17). And they sign up for biology in some kind of hope that they are picked when the whale watching jobs are handed out.
So, in large part, there is a perception problem and overcoming this problem is a much better solution than providing short-term incentives for students to work harder on science and maths in the six months before the leaving. The most recent effort was the “scope” programme on RTE, but I don’t know if it has had an effect.
What Niall said is also true. No point in bringing somebody into a course if they are not going to be able for it. They drop out and nobody is happy.
My point was not so much about getting people to take these subjects as the points incentive is only going to work for the required subjects. Ie double Maths points for a maths degree but not for a law degree. It is more about rewarding the good science students who want to do science rather then having people who score top marks in the non-science subjects getting ahead of them in science subjects. One of the top guys in my physics undergrad came in with one of the lowest points because other then physics and maths he got poor grads. Yet there were many above in points wise that were not his grad. Likewise some below the points cut-off might be better at math and physics then those above it. But due to the ones above doing well in Irish they get the place.
For all the slagging Forensic Science gets it does show that a positive image (CSI) can encourage kids. Scope is probably not the way. Science has to come sideways. Bring back Macguver.
Less of this ER, Boston Legal.
Being a useful scientist is about creating new knowledge, not simply absorbing old knowledge. Schools should be teaching and testing this.
There’s nothing wrong with a scientist who hasn’t memorized the periodic table; the important thing is that the physicist is about to conjure up a question, design a good appropriate experiment, and be able to analyze the results. Many so-called scientists today are simply unable to contribute anything new.
Science progresses because every answer raises more questions. We don’t need people to memorize the old answers (that’s what computers are for); we need people who are able to ask the questions and are capable of investigating then.
The funny thing is that a scientist who really understands will then probably end up with a better memory anyway.
A good Leaving Cert mathematician, preferably with computer skills, is a much better candidate for being a good scientist than those with good scores in science subjects. Science exams should have a much stronger emphasis on statistics and the ability to tell random results from meaningful results. This should be done in the Junior Cert. As well as weeding out the incapable at an earlier stage, it would encourage the more mathematical minded science student as they would see the reality of science and that they would enjoy it.
You are correct, Simon about CSI. The effect of that program has been enormous. A number of degrees exist in Ireland based on forensics. At the RDS every year for the careers fair, the number of secondary school students that just trawl the hall looking for forensics is pretty amazing. This is despite the fact that there are probably very few employment opportunities per year in forensics in the entire country.
What we need is an image change for the rest of science. In the UK, the BBC produces some great science programmes and lots of people see it as a great career opportunity and pursue science with a great deal of enthusiasm.
Not sure James I am doing my PhD over here and Forensics is even bigger. While science take is even lower then in Ireland. We have the highest amount of people taking science and tech in Uni per capita in the world remember. Something like 25% compared to 12.5% or there abouts in the UK
Simon, the points system you describe is in fact very similar to the old NIHe Limerick point system, you got bonus points for a language for the humanities course and for science for the science/engineering courses, and counselling for choosing Thomond (only joking). And I’d normally let it lie but we’re not in the US quite yet but the subject is called Maths not Math.
As for the sexiness, that is in part down to TV and too many writers coming from an arts background. Odd isn’t it that we require a C in honours Irish to enter primary teaching but not the same for Maths. And benchmarking should have been an opportunity to bring in some market forces in pay for teachers, we lack people with actual degrees in mathematically ground areas teaching Maths. Maths is the most important subject in school as it is about learning to think, everything else is about learning to express yourself or to understand the outside world. Only Maths can change your mind.
currently doing a maths degree (BSc) in UCC… along with 5 other people, the rest are doing actuarial science(you choose which one after first year).
when it comes to leaving cert maths the reality is that when people say you don’t need to understand subject x, what they mean to say is that you don’t need a teacher’s assistance to study. with ridiculously high class levels added to lack of decent teaching staff. people with decent qualifications in science can do much better than teaching. I was lucky to attend a school which had a maths department with experienced maths teachers.
I have heard horror stories about maths teachers pretty much saying “maths is really hard… do pass” but what they mean to say is “I’m a shit teacher and it would make my job easier if you did pass”.
also it is possible to rote learn maths to get a C1 the exam is built so that 60% of the exam is built to suit rote learning and the last 40% is unseen problems
also everyone I talk to thinks I’m going to be a teacher but I’ll most likely ended up as a trader (stock market) or something in software. or actuary(the pay is really good but its a 9-5 job where you work on your own and nobody has a clue what you do)
last comment:
my sister just told me (first year (secondary school) that she has a teacher that if you say you don’t understand that she says that you were not listening. one student in the class said that she didn’t understand and received a letter home to her parents that she was not listening which reminded me of this
http://hewasmymathteacher.ytmnd.com/
Look at the latest http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0815/breaking40.htm
Hanafin wants to split maths! into business maths and science maths.
Quoting from the article “The Minister said there are students who are very good at science and students who are very good at business. “Why do they both have to do the same maths paper when you can have a little twist on it that can make it more accessible?” ”
Yep that’s the answer because 2+2 isn’t necessary add up to 4 in the business.
What next maths for girls?
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060610/bob8.asp
I wanted to post a link this time. Some of you may have read it already
and I think that it is something that may possibly happen here too.
Bad statistics will lead to a modification of subjects to improve scores, but at the expense of the subject itself. If this is how UK and Ireland treats important technological subjects then
we won’t really have much to offer the world market other than agriculture.
Physics teacher’s open letter to AQA
The point system is not fair, it about how much you can learn then ream off in the exams, then after you just forget it,.