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Back in 1971 Neil Blaney was sacked from Jack Lynch’s government over the arms trial. And he set up Independent Fianna Fail which re-joined last year. So with pressure on Willie O’Dea to resign over his pro-Shannon stance. If he left the party what would happen? Firstly Willie O’Dea is quiet popular in the mid-west and if he was kicked out would he bring a few FF people with him? Certainly there would be a lot of pressure to go with him on the local FF TD’s. In the North Kerry, Limerick,Clare and North Tipperary there is 8 Fianna Fail TD’s a grouping that is bigger then the Green Party and enough to bring down the government. Not going to happen but still you never know.
One of those mid western fianna faillers would be many hannifin, who seems to be acting as lapdog for the pro-abandon shannon government.
Isn’t Mary Hanafin TD for Dun Laoghaire? Anyway, one of the many mysteries of FF is how they’ve managed to hold together such diverse groups for so long. The people in the small towns who were convinced that they get as much say in the party as the bigwigs around Dublin. Maybe the strain is showing. Dermot Ahern is not going to be a credible spokesman for the abandon SNN side as he (like Dempsey) is from an area that strongly benefits from the clustering of everything around Dublin and along the M1 axis. In fact Ahern should be asked if Heathrow is as undesirable as he says it is, why does Aer Lingus want to move the slots? He may be right that the Heathrow transit experience is not pleasant, but I’ve heard a lot of CDG transit horror stories too. And Heathrow will be a different experience when T5 opens. I think FF will badly need a credible spokesman to make the case who won’t come across as a Let Them Eat Stansted Dubliner.
I’m not sure there’s any way of selling this to the Shannon lobby, from any quarter. I think the only saviour is that their ‘we’re really incensed that you’ve taken umbrage at the way we shafted you for years with the stopover’ attitude isn’t doing much to gain national sympathy.
I think the statement by Knock Airport management, welcoming the Belfast move and reflecting on the commercial challenges facing the West, is significant in illustrating how isolated Limerick and Clare TDs really are on this.(http://www.knockairport.com/news.asp?ID=214&dbtype=News) Hence, unless they are really stupid, they are not going to paint themselves into a corner.
With Ryanair abusing its Aer Lingus shareholding to commercially damage its main Irish competitor, I think there’s a real national challenge to be faced and it has little to do with Shannon. Outside of Limerick and Clare, I think the mood is there for the Government to face that challenge.
schuhart, who are the Shannon lobby? It might surprise you to know that not everyone living within 100 miles of Shannon airport was benefiting from the stopover or was supportive of it. Will those people still be able to get flights to Heathrow?
You know the answer to that - yes, from Cork and Dublin if they really need to get to Heathrow for a service they cannot get direct from Shannon, Cork, Dublin, Gatwick and Stansted (and assuming that no-one sees a point in establishing a service between Shannon Airport and some other hub).
Anticipating the ‘but that hours away’ can I draw your attention to the last page of a submission made a few years ago by Shannon Airport to the European Commission opposing the liberalisation of air transport. It can be found here:
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air_portal/consultation/doc/2003_05_15/contributions/aerrianta-shannon.pdf
It shows Cork as being just outside a 90 minute journey time from Shannon. Reverse the journey and apparently its a crisis. But Shannon was happy enough for everyone else to travel when it suited it - the phrase ‘hoist by their own petard’ comes to mind.
As we can see from the reaction of Knock Airport, this is not something that impacts the whole West coast. Only Limerick and Clare are really energised and, tbh, they had it coming when you consider the ruin they were willing to inflict on the rest of the country. Sounds cruel, but isn’t it the simple truth that there’s very little real sympathy for this campaign outside of there.
Schuhart, I presume you are aware that Shannon Airport is run by the Dublin Airport Authority and not some autonomous local body. After all, how do you explain the situation with the stopover if it was some local conspiracy. It was in fact national policy for years and yes it favoured the west at the expense of those flying too and from the main population centres. I think it was wrong headed, and a mistaken policy but it was a national policy not some local one which was dictated to the rest of the country. If people in the east didn’t agree with it then they could have stopped voting for the parties that supported it.
Truth is I’m very unclear what the logic is in suggesting that this is some sort of payback for the stopover. I actually think the two issues are completely unrelated and most rational people would think so too. You sound much more irrational that those looking to preserve the link to Heathrow who think Aer Lingus management has a moral duty to the region. And that takes some doing.
I think people aren’t and shouldn’t be looking for sympathy, what they are and should be looking for is some consistency from the people they voted for and elected who said the slots would be preserved. And failing the appearance of that consistency they should stop voting for the people who let them down.
Dan
I think you know that ad hominem arguments like ‘you sound irrational’ fail to impress.
The stopover is the prime example of an approach to regional development based on the idea of strangling Dublin and chucking resources into the regions. That policy has failed, and that’s the reality that the Shannon lobby seem incapable of digesting – while Knock Airport management clearly have.
I think you also know that it would be incredibly naïve to explain the stopover just as ‘national policy’ and ignore the political background behind it. The success of the Shannon lobby in defending the stopover is relevant as it displayed an utter contempt for impacts on the rest of the country.
That’s why you find, in the current situation, Shannon can no longer depend to rally the rest of the country by Pale wailing. Cork feels it has been screwed by Shannon and, indeed, some speak about the veil having dropped now that its suggested that the Mid West have ready access to services in the South. The South East knows it has fallen behind and is now poorer than the West – and had nothing like the array of State sponsored benefits given to Shannon for decades. Now Knock Airport has joined that view, showing that perceptive regional development advocates in the West can see new realities forming.
I can only suggest that you reflect on the situation, because your judgement is not correct. I had a Shannon advocate tell me on a thread on politics.ie that my bias against Shannon was unbalancing my read of the situation. I responded, inter alia, that the boot was on the other foot and his read of this as an issue mobilising the whole Western seaboard was just plain wrong. I suggested that Knock were probably already out looking for a hub service, as Shannon’s difficulty would be their opportunity, and that was the cohesive support he could expect from the West. Then, hey presto, Knock issue their statement.
Hence, when I see someone else saying I’m not rational, I really do find myself wondering if you’ve woken up to what this controversy is really telling us.
“The stopover is the prime example of an approach to regional development based on the idea of strangling Dublin and chucking resources into the regions.”
And you think the current approach of not having a proper regional development policy isn’t strangling Dublin? You been on the M50 lately? I was saying you sounded irrational with your constant referral on the stopover. The stopover was a bad idea, I said I’ve always thought that, but you need to build a bridge and get over it. The situation has along ago moved on from the stopover. I think the larger bulk in the Mid-west who are doing most of the public wailing are those who supported the government most vehemently over the last while.
I actually do not think Aer Lingus is wrong to be doing what they are doing, I think the government was wrong in the manner in which it handled the privatisation of the assets held by Aer Lingus but that it over and done now. Too late to be blaming Aer Lingus
Just so we can record some agreement, we’d use different language but I think we essentially agree that if AL is privatised, then it cannot be expected to forego greater profits elsewhere. I’d also acknowledge that, as 11 out of the 12 TDs elected in Limerick and Clare belong to FF and FG, people in those counties voted overwhelmingly for parties that were pro AL privatisation.
I don’t accept that the absence of a proper regional development policy strangles Dublin. Dublin is not a particularly large city - its problem is it simply did not get appropriate resourcing, particularly for transport, until very recent years.
Lack of a proper regional development policy strangles the regions. What is sad is resources are actually invested in the name of regional development, but produce little by way of results. Part of that, IMHO, reflects the paucity of public debate in the country. To take the case in point, when did anyone really properly assess what the stopover was supposed to be doing (as distinct from engaging in hagiography about it)?
We need a proper debate on regional policy. I think the document I linked above by the Knock Airport CEO is actually a reasonable start - I don’t agree with every word but I doubt that he’d agree with everything I say. The important thing is he sets out a basis on which a real discussion might be had, for example welcoming the prospect of returning prosperity in the North lifting the country instead of the narrow suspicious ‘hamstring Dublin’ rhetoric of other ’save the West’ types.