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Its on RTE 1 now. Comment away if your watching online. Watch it live http://www.rte.ie/live/index.html
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Here’s the Dept of Finance statement issued late last evening about the Minister’s discussion with the banks. I think we know why some banks didn’t want to be in the guarantee scheme: those in the scheme can be made an offer they can’t refuse: to merge.
Mary Harney’s expensive trip to Houston and Phoenix.
The FAS/Florida row is not the only time the issue of her travel costs has arisen.
techPresident – The Future of Campaign Technology: The Ground Game
Irish Parties looking at learning online and database lessons from Obama could do worse than bear this post in mind. Almost as soon as the election is over, improvements and evolution are making some parts redundant and others essential. Get your campaign an i-phone for everyone? Might be better than printing flyers, it goes to show how parties, if they take it seriously, need to keep ahead of the wave - not just follow.
Colman at the EuroTrib give his reasoning on why Lisbon is dead. The Government's incapable handling of the budget cuts are the nail in the coffin.
Fine Gael’s Leo Varadkar offers his view on how the SBP Opinion Poll would translate in an election.
Jaysus, Adams was a disaster. While the debate was being introduced he was the only candidate standing somewhat casually at the podium while the others stood rigid. Perhaps he was just fidgeting.
Trevor performed best. Very different kind of pitch.
Adam’s is not great on this platform it has to be said. Anyone notice the notes written on Trevor Sargent’s hand?
McDowell pulling out his bit of paper should have been jumped on by the moderator.
He’s losing control of the debate. Trevor doing well on it though, but it’s after getting a bit messy.
i think your right. Mark is making a mess of running this debate. Its turning into a prop show. Also Adam’s is very much of the sit back style which looks likely to lose out in this debate.
Trevor is going very well and more than able to go toe to toe.
McDowel starting the slagging
“I’m surrounded by the left, the far left, and the left overs”
McDowell is doing well - nobody seems to have noticed that he doesn’t have any ideas for job creation either.
squid - I wonder when he wrote that joke. He was determined to get it in. He almost panicked when he seemed not be able to get on to the “left overs” bit. He persevered though.
Who’re the left overs?
McDowell seemed to be dictating the first few minutes of the debate by focusing on the economy, trying to make it seem like the other parties wouldn’t be able to handle the country’s finances. He fought well, but he was shot down pretty hard by Rabbitte and Sargent.
Sargent was very good talking about the health system just now.
A few points to Gerry on the tax question though. They are all taunting McDowell on Health, who seemed preped on Labour and the Greens but no Adams, who admittedly read his figures from his notes.
And nobody seems capable of rumbling him sufficiently to ask him. He is excellent at getting on the offensive and staying there.
“I’m surrounded by the left, the far left, and the left overs”
Going into the pantheon of electoral phrases for those quotation books
Shut up Trevor. Shut fucking up! My god what a moany cow. McDowell and Rabbitte are masters of clever digs. Pat is more relaxed and acting more like someone that knows what he is saying whereas McDowell is doing nothing but attack. He really seems unable to be taken as being truthful.
Mark is showing his colours as a bit of right-winger.
He keeps demanding the lefties explain the stats behind their claims. McDowell getting a free pass that way.
Pat seems to be taking every chance to debate Fianna Fail in their absence
Little keeps getting run over by McDowell while interrupting the others. NOt McDowell’s fault but it is bad handling by Little.
They all seem to have their straw men in front of them simon
One thing Gerry has right that the others are failing on is that policy detail doesn’t really move voters. Values, values, values…
Gerry has a holiday home. I noticed on mycandidate.ie that McDowell didn’t list his controversial pile up the country. It must be in the name of the wife.
On the average industrial wage, Michael earns the average industrial for a Minister for Justice.
Trevor actually is the one who is handling the policy questions best. He has been fluid and competent on the issues as well as where he is coming from ideologically.
Certainly the most composed on the ball (to borrow from this evenings other entertainment)
Yup it is in her name alright. Just a little fact picked up along the way.
“Menopausal Paris Hilton.”
Classic.
Live commentary going on here too…
http://www.magicmum.com/phpBB/well-are-yis-watching-the-dabate-on-prime-time-t60197.html
Mick, I thought that was what was a departure in Trevor’s opening remarks. Flatter the voter’s better nature.
Does anyone know if its actually possible that Gerry Adams could be Tánaiste? And if not, should he technically be involved in this debate?
Cian i must disagree. I’m not a sinn fein supporter. Too many thugs in his party. But he can cummunicate. The others just create an “unseemly squabble” between three public schoolboys. He just sticks to core points and delivers them. He communicates to the ordinary man. (Notice the others stay silent when he speaks.) He doesn’t slag the others off. McDowel just throws digs in at the others and thier policies. Very negative. It makes him seems petty. It’s tirsome to listen too and looses his audience.
Sargent gets too annoyed. A leader needs to exude calmness and authority.
My marks out of ten for each leader. (others please comment and give their marks)
Rabbitt ( 7 out of 10) very witty sometimes
Sargent (4 out of 10) didn’t connect with tv audience
McDowell (5 out of 10) very negative. Petty man. You love him or hate him
Adams ( 8 out of 10) communicated well. He is an expert though.
Your right Embarr, he would have to be an elected TD in order to sit in government. However it seems to be a party leader’s debate, i take your point though.
Liam, in the latter stages, Adams has certainly got to grips with the debate. in the early phases he was not only lost but also struggled to keep Little on focus too. He has since come into it but best so far is rabbitte.
Ill keep marks till the end.
McDowell is clearly getting outflanked by being on with “the left, the far left, and the left overs”! Oh, conciliation with Labour on drugs, after belting Adams below the belt on Colombia!!!
FARCing hell!
It’s all a bit male isn’t it.
They should at least have stuck a woman in as mod.
or perhas Risteard Cooper as Miriam in Apres Match!
Equally, Adams is spot on to raise this. Also the only leader (I think) who intervened to raise an issue in that fashion
Liam,
They were all a bit excited at the beginning. Adams again is getting in the one liners while the others bicker. Oh, there’s the old line, “we will deal with these matters”… which is good filler for not having an answer…
4. I don’t get Rabbit I have to say - too much detail… 3. McDowell next, he’s the fall guy for the others (though his clash with Adams over Colombia will excite the base)… 2. Sargent then since he’s just had more joined up sentences in the debate… then Adams… as Liam says he’s a good communicator (and fairly handy at manipulating the chair), and his message is focused on 1, his core audience, and 2, easing a few of the wavering transfers…
Sargent….. great end to debate….. Stick to your core values…. Climate Change and values in politics
I was unfair earlier… New mark (6 out of 10)
Suicide is really swept under the carpet in electoral politics. Sensationalism in the press doesn’t help with clusters and “copycats” being such a problem.
But there’s a lot of services that can be put in place to reduce the incidence and we don’t seem to want to do it.
Thought that could have got a bit more attention.
I was off line for a while… did McDowell mention ’slump coalition’ at all?
I think that Adams played it well in raising it. It is an issue of serious importance to most people under 30/35. I think that will play will the the great number of young people considering voting for them anyway.
Mick, he seems to have replaced that with;
“your voting for enda kenny taoiseach, Pat Rabbitte Finance and Trevor Sargent at Environment. A Government with the left in the saddle”
minor players i will wait for tomorrow night
I see the next debate Enda’s Eyebrows vs Bertie’s Chins
Cian,
Not nearly as effective…
McDowell really didn’t like that stuff about how his abuse was working for Rabbitte.
I actually felt a bit sorry for McDowell there. It seemed to dawn on him that he wasn’t liked.
Politicians used to be a lot friendlier across party lines once the hurly burly was out of the way, but he helped to kill that and Rabbitte probably hasn’t helped either.
There wasn’t much collegiality on display tonight.
Adams gets points from me for his performance toward the end, especially suicide. I think Pat and Trevor did well, not sure how McDowell played out. It got very L&H in there at times and I am not sure how many voters like that.
Best performer in taking the rough and the calm was Rabbitte. Adams when in the groove hit the right notes while Sargent was good in patches. McDowell veered between brilliant and mental.
Worst on the night was little.
There wasn’t much collegiality on display tonight.
True, still one wouldn’t expect it with 3-4 challenging each other for a spot at the top table.
Cop,
It should be no surprise that he’s not liked by those three… He lost focus too often, but hey… who knows? As Patrick says, these are the smaller players, and accordingly their margins hard to predict…
McDowell played it smart, actually. He spoke to his base - he’s not chasing votes across the spectrum like the others.
He’s go at Adams re Columbia will really have appealed to his grassroots, especially on the US Republican notion that “the Administration” knows about the known unknowns.
He’s really fighting for his seat with Gormley.
I’d probably judge Adams on the “appeal to his base” criterion as well, so will reassess.
The others are making more of a play across the spectrum.
actually a very good point copernicus. The tactics are pretty sensible in that light. But McDowell would also be looking to bring in others with that performance.
“Worst on the night was Little”
Agree 100% ! Cian
Little (2 out of 10) That’s an F, Little, for Fail. You’re sacked! Oh, sorry you can’t be. You are in a cushy state job.
The Rainbow cloud hadn’t a foot to stand on with regard to the citizenship referendum and immigration issues which they all opposed.
21.40 tomorrow then guys..?
McDowell won the argument, without a doubt.
popcorn is bought and all not sure if we saw the best action this evening though. Mcdowell and Adams was great viewing. AS was Rabbitte, Sargent and McDowell. I think that tonights debate is likely to be important in bringing one alliance or another over the line
I hear media all day talking about the secondary effects of these debates. Are they really that important. People who watch might decide on it but are they really that arsed by what Miriam Lord thought of it all. I would think apathy to the event would stretch as far as journo coverage too.
After all that, RTE are live-streaming Terminator 3. Don’t know what that says about tonight.
I reckon McDowell did alright from this debate. Mostly as a result of bad management by Little. He didn’t really get challenged on any figures, and he did his usual attack-dog thing. Nice performance from him though.
Gerry Adams got shown up constantly (mostly by McDowell) for his inability to answer straight questions, lack of considerations for the economy and budget, and general leftiness. Though cinsidering this, he began to get stronger towards the end from a bad start.
Sargent got too angry unfortunately for him, because he would otherwise have done very very well from some of the points he made, the refutation and the way in which he seemed to be able to quote definite facts at will. Badly overall though because he allowed McDowel to get him angry.
And the big winner this evening was without a doubt Rabitte. Stayed calm, fired back everything that came at him (except for the issues of a coalition with the Greens), and handled himself the best. Comment of the election so far from him tonight on the “Menopausal Paris Hilton”. Laughed out loud literally.
I unfortunately missed the last few minutes of the debate, but hope they’ll put it online soon.
Love to do this again tomorrow, but I’ll be panic ingesting Family Law for exam Friday.
surely you need some time in front of the telly/computer to digest copernicus! We will be here with the andrews
Final marks for debate:
ADAMS(8.5 out of 10)) Solid performance then first candidate to connect with audience on emotional level with suicide talk. Master stroke.
SARGENT ( 6.5 out of 10) I liked his summary. His agenda is clear. A vote for Green is a vote to tackle climate change (rugby moms will love it) and for values in politics (rugby daddies will hate it!)
RABBITT ( 6.5 out of 10) very witty man, but too many facts and figures
MC MULLA (5 out of 10) So negative. The grassroots will love it but didn’t win any new voters
The Greens and Labour (if you ask me) were already showing incredible differences and splits between them half ways through the debate.
I hate McDowell, but I applauded when he called Adams on some of his nonsense. He was asked how they would pay for 3000 beds and started going on about Sinn Feins success in the peace process. There was a man who couldn’t answer a question so he ran directly to his only success.
I hope if anything it showed the people of Ireland Sinn Fein shouldn’t be allowed near government.
Over on Slugger, Brian Boru makes these points:
Personally point could be a nasty little ‘grower’, as they say…
Point C, sorry..
its either going to be that point or the “menopausal paris hilton”
McDowell was up against the most amount of people who opposed him politically and for such a tricky position, he really did argue the point across given the fact that his next door neighbor (Sargent) kept interrupting and talking him down the whole way through the debate.
Mc Dowell was a disgrace - he was personally vicious, snide and had no respect for others when talking- he’s not a debater- he’s a demagogue and a bully. If I were PD I would be squirming at that performance, Harney was always better at that kind of debate. Adams tried to raise the issues that dont get raised but he’s weak on the economy- he needs better briefings but he was the most dignified of them all. Sargeant was impressive. Might give the Greens my second vote after that performance.
And Little was out of his depth.
Interesting to read your views folks. My synopsis …
Rabbitt (7 ex 10) : Remained calm, composed and knowing. Got to deliver his pre-rehearsed off-the-cuff gag.
McDowell (4 ex 10) : Shouwed himself up as a bully who takes himself too seriously. Only mitigating factor was that the panel was set up as a 1 v 3
Adams (5 ex 10) : Tried to appear detached and above the squabble but couldn’t help the intimitating “Don’t interrupt me” line very early on which cause Little to wet himself.
Sargent (3 ex 10) : I don’t trust a man who has to write his policies on his hand. That’s taking green policies too far. Was always the boy among men, particularl when attacked by McD he tried a pathetic “no I didn’t, you did” line.
Looking forward to tomorrow and Enda making shite out of Bertie. Not.
overall I enjoyed it. I learned a lot about the relationship between the greens and labour and the possibilities ost election.
Overall very satisfied with Trevor Sargent’s performance. despite the slip on the first opening line and the hand notes. Then again I might be used to his style of delivery that I listened to content not delivery.
as the days go by the more and more SF scare me.
Michael MCDowell seemed to be clutching at straws and kept referring to his party as I. he was vocal but unimpressive.
Pat just seemed to sit there smiling repeating the Party Mantra.
what’s going to be weird is that there were 4 very distinct parties on show tonight with very different policy and issues raised.
what the hell are they going to talk about tomorrow night? I have a feeling they’ll be bringing up the past a lot.
Little has no depth - he was out of his shallows. A dreadful performance.
It’s not a simple case of one clear winner. McDowell’s style will have annoyed a lot of people BUT not his base. He is after the voters who fear left wing policies (I’m not going to call it right wing because thanks to skin head nutters the phrase “right wing” has been hijacked). From that point of view McDowell will be happy enough (although he lost it a bit at the end and he knew it).
Rabbitt also did well. He engaged with McDowell and got his point across. He was ambushed by Adams at the start on who best represents the Left and he looked pissed at that but he came into it very strongly after that. Overall I thought he shaded it.
Adams shouldn’t have been at the debate. He is not a leader of a party in THIS country. O’Caoileann OR McDonald should have been the leader as one of them will be the Sinn Fein Leader in the republic after the election. Beyond that he did well but the whole FARC thing will have put doubts in peoples minds. His base (unemployed, young etc) will have liked what he said but he will be raging at the discussion on his role in the IRA, the 25 million from Farc and then the jibe about the Northern Bank owening his house. Unlike McDowell Adams didn’t just go in to shore up his base. He went in hoping to win middle class votes and the FARC issue destroyed that.
I wasn’t impressed with Sargent. I thought he was the best speaker in the opening segment BUT his style at the podium was hampered by the camera which had zoomed in too far and his body language was mostly cut off. After that he allowed himself be pushed out of the debate by the other three. For long stretches he said nothing and almost had to be helped in by Little (who overall was quite poor in the chair). Like Adams Sargent will have seen that as a chance to move beyond his base but he got muscled out. He didn’t lose any votes but he won’t have gained many either.
So for my money both Rabbitt and McDowell did what they set out to achieve. Adams and Sargent didn’t.
Overall, I thought everybody got what they wanted out of it.
It was amazing that Adams was the only one who actually used the word ‘rural’ during the entire debate. Sargent complained about addicts in the North East having to travel to Enfield but didn’t pass comment on people from Donegal or the Aran Islands having to travel to Dublin for far more common ailments. Adams also scored points for being the one who didn’t get bogged down in the details most people could care about (I imagine that this had something to do with the fact that he didn’t know the details) and he made sure to mention the peace process at every turn. He was the only one who sounded like he wasn’t in the L&H and he really has mastered the dramatic pause. And for shame, he was the only person who mentioned suicide.
McDowell came off as smarmy, childish and negative, but more importantly, he came across as being different to the other parties, which will appeals to certain parties. He played the green party/ labour party differences for everything they were worth and then some. Got some good shots in on Adams, but honestly, negative campaigning doesn’t come any worse. He avoided Bertiegate like the plague.
I have to disagree with a lot of people here. The winners of that debate were Sargent and McDowell, Adams was out of his depth all over the place only person more out of his depth was little. Keept bringing out his focus group mantra of rights. Dire.
Pat Rabbitee stuck to his bullet points did not say much.
McDowell was occasionally brilliant. Ran the show. Some of the lines and come backs were awe inspiring it was 3 against 1 and he whipped the Rabbitee and Adams. When Adams went off on a tangent of the north. McDowell brought him back on it. Got him on drugs as well.
Trevor was the only one to make any points on McDowell. was damaged by the camera work I think made some great points off camera. Nailed McDowell on the greens being the only people to drop Business tax. Kept his points simple with examples. kept it logically. By far the most likely to win over swaying voters of the three. Who cares about points written on his hand. More eco friendly and lets admit more realistic then some sheets handed to him by P.R people like Adams and Rabbitee
Sargent 9/10
McDowell 8/10
Rabbitee 4/10
Adams 1/10
Little 1/infinity
Its was hilarious to see that Trevor Sargent had the palm of his left hand full of biro marks with all the bulletin points he needed in case he forgot to mention them!
This was on display for everyone to see any time he raised his hands.
McDowell said that private patients were getting better care than public patients from their consultants, and I thought they were simply queue jumping and getting nicer rooms. Now they get actually better care, I’m sure the consultants organisation will have something to say about that.
And it seemed that McDowell was more concerned about putting the wind the few hundred voters who live in his constituency and who work in the IFSC than the fact that most voters could care less if the state takes a few hundred million of the banks. No one likes the bankers Michael.
Also, what was the deal with McDowell’s shadow goatee when speaking at the podium? It was very pointy and everything, like a twenties silent movie villain.
What evil goatee? Have you been joining Cowen out the back of the Dail carpark?
It looked like the smile from the mask from “V for Vendetta”, I’m looking for images to link to and I’ll post in full on my blog. Look at the rte clip below about 7m14secs in.
http://www.rte.ie/news/elections2007/thehub_programmes_primetime_av.html?2248827,null,230
My housemate suggested it was a witch in a McDowell mask and that she hadn’t pulled the mask all the way down.
Hi friends,
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