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More on Kathleen Lynch
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The papers are still covering the Kathleen Lynch scandal the Indo has
Meanwhile, Ms Lynch repeated that she deeply regretted any hurt caused by her letter, but stressed that she would not be resigning and hoped to draw a line under the matter.
Of course you want to draw a line under it. Because you seriously messed up and want it to go away and keep your €108,500 year job. If this was a Fianna Fail TD you know they would be asking for their head. And rightly so. Labour were all about standards in office a few weeks ago with Bertie. Well it swings both ways you know.AS the editorial says
As an experienced public representative, she should have known better than to act in such a way. Either she hoped to influence the judge — nothing could have been more improper — or she thought it merely a matter of form, the kind of thing deputies do every day.
She said
“In hindsight, and isn’t everything great in hindsight, it was an error in judgment.
If she requires hindsight to judge whether or not she should try to influence a judge to get a lenient sentence for a rapist. Can we really trust her judgement on anything else?
Whatever about Kathleen Lynch by remaining silent on this and taking no disciplinary action Eamon Gilmore has lost all credibility. He can no longer preach from the high moral ground now that it turns out that his leadership is as willing to turn a blind eye to lapses in moral judgement from Labour TDs as Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have in the past.
With Enda Kenny clearly out of his depth Gilmore was out last best hope for leadership from the opposition benchs over the next 4 years. Now that hope is gone.
I have always despised the idea that the judiciary should deal with certain people more leniently because they come from “a good home” or “their parents are pillars of the community”. Such criteria should not make an individuals misdemeanours somehow more acceptable. The parents were not the people who committed the crime - why should their personality come into consideration when sentencing.
If anything, people who come from “good homes” should face stiffer sentencing. People like the lads who kicked seven shades out of Brian Murphy outside club Annabelles had every chance in life. They grew up in the leafy suburbs of Dublin with affluent parents. Parents who could afford to splash out on expensive schools. Respectable parents who know the difference between right and wrong, who know about manners and morals and who instilled this knowledge in their children. It should be a bigger deal when people with this type of background find themselves on the wrong side of the law.
If anybody should be treated leniently it’s the people who grew up with parents who were less respectable - alcoholics, drug addicts, criminals. As children they never stood much of a chance of maturing into a civic minded individual. But that’s beside the point - murder and rape are both wrong. One instance is never more forgivable than another.
I think Kathleen Lynch was incredibly stupid to get involve in this, but I’m not sure what purpose resignation (and the bye election it would cause) would serve. If we don’t even see people resigning as ministers or ministers of state when they screw up and all the talk of setting an example by resigning is just playing into the hands of gombeen folks up and down the country. FG sought to set an example by dismissing Lowry and with the resignations of Hogan and Coveney over very minor mistakes and what changed? Nada.
It is not about changing anything. It is about right and wrong.
Simon, where was the talk of right and wrong over the last 11 years when it comes to members of the government? If only the opposition are expected to be to be playing by those rules then they are eejits.
simon, if you can point me where you called for the resignation of Tony Killeen for example after he wrote to the minister for justice calling for a murderer and then separately a child rapist to be granted early release then I would give your call for the resignation of Kathleen Lynch some credibility. Fact is if I was Kathleen Lynch’s constituent I wouldn’t vote for her after this but for you to be expecting her to resign when you’ve let others off the hook is a bit rich.
I did write about on the site. http://www.irishelection.com/01/tony-kilean/
in fact the only one to write about it on the site i believe. But we dealing with two different issues here they are not comparing like for like. Kileen ’s staff without his knowledge sent the letters to the Minister for Justice he acted negligently being so careless with his staff probably is resign material but to compare what he did to what Lynch did is not right.
He did not personally try to influence a judge in a case. He was negligent she was not she was deliberate. It was submitted via the defense council it was part of the defense. This wasn’t some rubber stamped letter probably sent along side letters looking for planning permission among something like 220,000 letters sent from his office this was a personnel letter aimed at influencing the judge from Lynch herself. Labour did not look for Killieen resignation http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/01/27/story24015.asp
they looked for Molloys
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1920586.stm
The last person that i know of who did the same was Bobby Molloy. And he departed the stage and Labour’s leadership looked for it.
Killeen was asking/canvassing the minister for Justice to use his power to grant someone early release hence shortening the sentence that had been handed down by the court. That sounds like interfering with the judicial process to me. Yet you didn’t think it a resigning matter even resignation merely from his position as minister of state. So is it that interfering before sentencing is ‘bad’, while interfering afterwards is ‘ok’ And even you raised an eyebrow at the “my staff did it” excuse.
I suspect that you simply reckon this is payback for a PD being hounded from office by those sanctimonious lefties. Like I’ve said already I wouldn’t vote for her, and I would have no problem with people urging others not to vote for her again, but resignation? To what purpose? Just to hand FF another seat?
I suspect that you simply reckon this is payback for a PD being hounded from office by those sanctimonious lefties.
Dan unlike you I am not a member of a political party nor have I ever been. Indeed at the time of Molloy’s resignation I voted Labour none of this i can prove as i didn’t blog at the time you have just got to take my word on it.
The fact of the matter is Kileen was an idiot he rubber stamped far to much. There is no proof that he knew anything else about it nor do any other party seem to think he didn’t do anything other then rubber stamp. Lynch’s case is different she knew what she was doing.
As to what purpose. Dan if you think the there is no other purpose to public office no standards other then keeping the party seat why are you not calling for Lowry to come back Fine Gael would get two seats in North Tipp.
“I wouldn’t vote for her, and I would have no problem with people urging others not to vote for her again, but resignation? To what purpose? Just to hand FF another seat?”
Dan,
It is short-sighted in the extreme and insensitive to claim that that her resigning will accomplish no more than handing FF another seat. Indeed the consequences of the resulting by-election should not even come into it.
There are a number of reasons for Kathleen Lynch to resign over this matter.
First, by writing that letter she has caused great distress to the victims of a despicable crime and their family. This has been made worse by the fact that the matter has, understandably, been all over the national press. At a time when the beast who raped these girls is being sentenced and when they should be starting to move on with their lives the whole matter is dragged back up again in a very public fashion.
Secondly, these people are her constituents, people she has been elected to represent and she has failed them horribly. She failed them horribly by attempting to use the influence afforded by that elected office in the manner she did and in the consequences that action has had.
Thirdly, continuing from above, her actions have damaged the reputation of the office she holds.
Fourthly, she has shown a horrible lack of judgement here and with the outcry that has resulted it is clear that she is a) out of touch and b) her remaining in office will continue to be a source of considerable hurt to many within her own constituency. She cannot represent these people effectively.
I could go on but the above are reason enough for her to resign.
What will her resigning accomplish?
Her resigning will draw a line under this and will go someway to repairing the damage and pain she has caused the victims as well as the damage she has done to her office.
Killeen was at a bare minimum negligent and guilty of deception (he tells his electorate that he is the very man that does all this legwork for them and that they should vote for him because he is so very good at it) yet you don’t reckon negligence or deception are reasons for someone to resign even from their half-car position not to mind their Dail seat?
We have a ready made mechanism for removing people from public office for mistakes, screw ups, and just plain wrongness. It’s called a vote. I wish the folks in Tipp for example would use it on Lowry but you know what they don’t. And you know what it aint FG loyalists that are keeping him in there as FG have a seat of their own. It is the self interested voters who vote for the one who writes (or has someone else write) all these letters. Yet I don’t see anyone attacking the naked self interest that rewards the politicians who pander to such people. This is the eventual outcome of clientelism which our current Taoiseach is regarded as this generation’s greatest exponent. And he is lauded for it.
I would be willing to compromise on this, if you would support it. Let’s have Kathleen Lynch resign provided someone comes up with some concrete boundaries of what TD are supposed to write letters on and what they’re not supposed to so we can see in black and white why she has to resign while Tony Killeen gets a free pass. And why not make it so that if a TD writes on your behalf before you have made any effort yourself to deal with your problem that you get billed for it.
And then Kathleen Lynch gets to contest the vacant seat, and all those looking for her resignation offer to pay the costs for holding the election. Not the campaign expenses, just the rest of the costs of the count and voting and so on. I’ll front up a tenner myself. We can have it on the day of the referendum. What do you say?
Eamonn, almost everything you’ve said can equally apply to Tony Killeen.
There are a number of reasons for Tony Killeen to resign over this matter.
First, by writing that letter he has caused great distress to the victims of a number of despicable crimes and their family. This has been made worse by the fact that the matter has, understandably, been all over the national press. A beast who murdered a man and another who raped a child and when their families should have been able to move on with their lives the whole matter is dragged back up again in a very public fashion.
Secondly, these people are her constituents, people he has been elected to represent and he has failed them horribly. He failed them horribly by attempting to use the influence afforded by that elected office in the manner he did and in the consequences that action has had.
Thirdly, continuing from above, his actions have damaged the reputation of the office he holds.
Fourthly, he has shown a horrible lack of judgement here and with the outcry that has resulted it is clear that he is a) out of touch and b) his remaining in office will continue to be a source of considerable hurt to many within her own constituency. He cannot represent these people effectively.
I could go on but the above are reason enough for him to resign.
What will his resigning accomplish?
His resigning will draw a line under this and will go someway to repairing the damage and pain he has caused the victims as well as the damage he has done to his office.
-
And I’ll add this to what you’ve written when you call for Tony Killeen to resign I’ll support the calls for Kathleen Lynch to resign. To do otherwise is to apply a double standard. And when he does, she should.
Dan
Why are you accuing me of double standards when you don’t even know my position on Tony Killeen?
Your only argument here is that Tony Killeen didn’t resign so why the hell should Kathleen Lynch? At best, that’s primary school reasoning.
Should Tony Killeen have resigned? Yes. Should Kathleen Lynch resign even if Tony Killeen didn’t? Yes, of course. Why? Because Kathleen Lynch should set an example and have the moral courage and decency that Tony Killeen didn’t and she should face the consequences of her actions.
The day the actions of a FF TD become the barometer for moral integrity in this country, as you seem to be suggesting Dan, will be a sad day.
Eammon, reading the earlier contributions I said setting an example doesn’t appear to achieve much of anything. And I was pointing out to Simon that he hadn’t called for Killeen’s resignation on any level. And my reference to double standards was to myself if I was to suggest that I supported Killeen’s resignation but not Lynch’s. If you call for both to resign then I support that, but to call for one to resign while not the other is a double standard. If the opposition are the only ones to play by those rules then they will be eejits. If people are calling for her to resign on her own then I’m opposed to it. Let me clear, I’m opposed both what Lynch did and why she did it but to be singling her out while giving a free pass to Killeen (and others for all we know) is wrong. However, get herself and Killeen to go and then people are being consistent and then I’m all for it. Not to trivialise this but it is bit like kicking the ball out if a player is injured if only one team does it then they’re fools.
Dan,
By that reasoning, if one side is taking bribes then the others would be “fools” not to do so as well.
You seem to be suggesting that actually demonstrating a bit of moral fibre and character to the public is a bad thing unless others are doing so too. The decent and honourable thing for Kathleen Lynch to do is resign just as it was for Tony Killeen. I strongly disagree that any party should depend on the actions of another party to set their moral integrity by.
The opposition, and FG in particular, are constantly being described as no different from the shower in there at the moment and this is part of their problem. Another problem is the lack of any real leadership within the opposition ranks. Here’s a perfect chance to show that they are different and have the courage to take a lead on something and actually trust the Irish people to reward them for it.
Kathleen Lynch has not broken any rules so she should not resign. Has she shown lack of judgement? Probably, but it’s up to the electorate to censure her when the opportunity arises. The same for Tony Killeen.
The broader issue is more interesting. Is clientelism the best way to run our democracy? Note that this case is not an isolated incident. It receives publicity because of the nature of the representation but the politics of clientelism is deeply embedded in the Irish political system and more often then not is detrimental to the greater good.
I would be more interested in seeing steps taken to reduce the politician’s dependence on clientelism than seeing Kathleen Lynch hung out to dry for doing what every politician is forced to do in order to stay elected.
We have a ready made mechanism for removing people from public office for mistakes, screw ups, and just plain wrongness. It’s called a vote.
So Bertie should have waited until 2012 before he went? I must search your blog and p.ie for all those posts you wrote admonishing the opposition leaders and journalists who were screaming for his head.
Do you really believe, as the above seems to suggest, there is no act or issue that any politician should ever resign over?
Because if so, WOW!
Let’s have Kathleen Lynch resign provided someone comes up with some concrete boundaries of what TD are supposed to write letters on and what they’re not supposed to so we can see in black and white why she has to resign while Tony Killeen gets a free pass.
Why does it need to be in black in white are we assuming that our TD’s are so lacking in moral fibre that they have to be legislated as they don’t have enough morals to know that personally looking for the lessening of a sentence of a rapists is wrong. Negligence is as you described Killeens sin is one thing but willfully causing distress to the victims for the sake of 2 votes is another. Dear god if that is the case then we are truly fecked as a nation.
Eamonn, as I pointed out much earlier FG did mark themselves out with regard to resignations and dismissals on previous occasions and it wasn’t seen by the public or the rest of the body politic as establishing much of an example.
Simon, I’m not sure that I have called for Bertie to resign on p.ie, I did a quick search on my blog and don’t see anything about it there. As for things being in black and white, the letter was from Tony Killeen (I’ve never bought that my office did it nonsense and frankly I didn’t think you did either) and was he not doing it for votes? So what is the difference? I think what she did was wrong, just as what he did was wrong. You think there is a difference that requires her resignation and not his, what is it?
I didn’t describe negligence as being Killeen’s sin, I said that he was guilty of “at a bare minimum negligent and guilty of deception”. I think he sin was much worse than that.
Simon, I’m not sure that I have called for Bertie to resign on p.ie, I did a quick search on my blog and don’t see anything about it there
Dan that was not my question. my question was where are all your posts your “admonishing the opposition leaders and journalists who were screaming for his head” not for the post you wrote yourself not calling for his head. So where are these posts and comments saying that People should have waited for voting to get rid of bertie?
Who has called for Bertie to resign his seat that I might admonish them?