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Walking the land
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One of the most disappointing features of Ireland, for me, has been the discovery that farmers can stop you walking over their land.
While I was living in UK, it was wonderful to be able to go out into the countryside and walk or ride a horse. The UK is littered with rights of way,with stiles, with signposts indicating good walks. The countryside there is a treat for urban dwellers. It is truely an educational space where quiet contemplation is easy.
What about Ireland?
I can’t go out for a Sunday ramble without spending most of the time on roads. There are probably some tremendous wilderness walks over high mountains, but how about a straightforward walk over some of the farmland near where I live in Douglas, Cork?
In the UK, the right to walk was won through struggle, throught civil disobedience, ancient and modern. The Ramblers Association is powerful. It is no placid interest group. It has a huge membership. What is the Irish equivalent and how active is it in asserting the interests of walkers?
My hypothesis is that Irish civil society is weak and comparatively undeveloped. Slowly the people organise themselves into groups to win the ability to pursue their interests. They are more used to people doing things for them (people like the roman catholic church) than taking charge themselves. The GAA strikes me as a notable exception.
I don’t expect walkers will lobby candidates demanding improved access to their countyside. I imagine walkers to be isolated and fragmented. Inexperienced at influencing. If anyone notices any debate of this issue round the country, I’d be grateful for information.
I intend to find out who chairs the walkers of Ireland.
I am not sure agree with your general point if i pick you up right. Certainly people power seems quiet big . With the likes of the IFA and SIPTU and the other unions having quiet a large say over what the government does. For instance the cafe bars where the vintners federation have alot to do with getting the legislation dropped
Surely the difference is not really people power, but the fact that these bridle paths and walkways have existed in Britain for generations. I don’t think we’ve had this in Ireland, not sure why.
As a children we always rambled through the fields. Never had any trouble and that wasn’t too long ago.
As for the point that irish people are used to others doing things for them, I’d have to disagree. Haven’t the farming organisations banded together to stop walkers on their land? They are doing something alright. And there is a walker’s group,
We don’t have a tradition of what one might term the patrician husbandry of the countryside by an aristocracy suffused with a sense of noblesse oblige, nor did we traditionally have commons (I know these were enclosed in England) - although much of our uplands are held in common, it’s accessing them across private land, which is the problem.
The farmers get my goat on this one - private property rights are not unlimited and, as I said on planet potato, a farm is not a giant back garden.
Oh and I meant to say, the Occupiers Liability Act addresses their worries about being sued by random strangers.
Copernicus has contributed several knowledgable and constructive points, as have the previous commenters.
I can add that the Planning & Development Act 2000 provides local authorites with a well-thought through set of powers for declaration and preservation of existing public rights of way, and for creation of new ones, either by agreement or compulsorily, subject to compensation. Development contributions provide a source of funding for this purpose, which people should pressurise local councillors, in urbanising areas in particular, to get amenity access through the Development Plan process.
Copernicus may know more about powers relating to voluntary access agreements between councils and landowners. Pressure groups for access tend to be locally based, and the Green Party is sympathetic to the cause.
An organization which I think is called Keep Ireland Open, and which has a website, may point you in the direction of local activists in the Cork area.
Omani,
On a more general note, I think you are falling into the common habit of measuring how things are in Ireland against an assumption that UK cultures,idelogies and policies are the norm, and that our ways here are deviations from British norms.
Frank,
That’s complete rubbish. I lived in UK for over 30 years, after growing up in Ireland. I know what it’s like to have easy access to countryside. Such easy access to good walking was one of the most valuable features of living in UK. I was simply pointing out that the situation in Ireland is not so good. In Ireland, people are denied access to the land because there is not yet a good network of rights of way in this country. The UK network evolved over centuries.
I’m focussing on one issue, and wondering whether there is any public pressure to increase access to the countryside.
I do think there are a number of things that are done better in UK, like the protection of green belt. To me you sound as if you are inclined to lurch into criticising my view without trying to understand it at all. I find that’s a very boring way of carrying on. Use of language like “our ways” smells to me like an effort to treat me as if I were an outsider.
Thank you though for the information about relevant legislation. However, I am most concerned about the fact that it is hard to go for a decent walk around Cork. Is everyone so wedded to their car that they quietly tolerate farmers having such control?
‘That’s complete rubbish.’
You can leave out that kind of talk. If you have a different opinion to mine, say so with reaosns.
I have changed my opinion on this one a bit. I use to be quiet against it. But now I think the only issue the farmers have is that people sometimes will leave gates open and leave rubbish in the fields. This is a valid concern. But how to solve it to everyones satisfaction is a tricky question.
simon,
Where the courts are satisfied that a public right of way exists, they say so. a landowner Neil collen lost a case in the courts last year in Wicklow, as the court said right of way did exist. But if access is to be created where none exists, it has to be paid for. Property has rights. In Ireland, I guess it’s true that smaller landholdings are being consolidated into larger ones in places, and that may be a problem.
Frank Neary,
You are right; I could have picked my words more carefully. I could have said that I thought your point was indeed rubbish because “I lived in UK for over 30 years, after growing up in Ireland. I know what it’s like to have easy access to countryside. Such easy access to good walking was one of the most valuable features of living in UK…”
I note that you said “I think you are falling into the common habit of measuring how things are in Ireland against an assumption that UK cultures,idelogies and policies are the norm, and that our ways here are deviations from British norms…”
I should have said : you are entitled to think whatever you like and you can believe anything you want…
However I still consider what you said to be insulting and without substance because (1) you didn’t even bother to give reasons to support what you thought and (2) you lurched into a judgement rather than gathering information.
Today’s discussion on RTE1 radio about Dublin Bay supports my main point. Years of talknig about the need for a strategic plan and action to develop the Bay as a public amenity, and years of achieving nothing. Three local authorities unable to move forward in the overall public interest. The only power that could move the situation forward seems to be central government. What track record does this government have in land-use planning? What examples are there of government knocking the heads of local authorities together? Why should I be confident that things will be any better in 10 years.
The Bay is a massive resource, available for public use, and commercial use too.
The recent purchase of land by the state somewhere south of Dublin is a wonderful example of what the state could achieve if it was suitable pushed to provide public access to places of outstanding natural beauty.
The National Trust in England, Wales & Northern Ireland has done a magnificent job of protecting and making available coastline for quiet enjoyment. Hasn’t there been some talk of setting up some sort of similarly independent charity in Ireland?
I’m hoping that this issue will come into the general election, hoping that politicians will be asked what their policy is on promoting public access to private land. Frankly farmers are getting too old and probably too conservative to be left solely in charge of the land.
As you say “Property has rights”. Perhaps it’s time we starting upping the corresponding responsibilities so that all farmers are obliged to provide public access over their land, subject to walkers being obliged to uphold the countryside code. (I’m not sure there is such a countryside code in Ireland, but I hope there is.)
Paul,
I thught you wanted to talk about walks around Douglas. Dublin has great costal walks, as well as the Wicklow Way.
Do you have any particular knowledge of British Town and Country Planning?
Frank,
I began in Douglas because that’s where I live. But everywhere I go in Ireland I notice the absence of walking rights. I see an ageing farmery in charge of land they can’t manage well. I see so many opportunities going to waste. So far. Hopefully this will change over the next few years.
If you go in Google and put in walking in Ireland, you find that Ireland has many fantastic walks but few local ordinary walks. you find walking in Ireland dominated by offers from companies offering to guide you. I was struck by what wasn’t there.
Given that it took centuries for the UK rights of way to be established, I hope we can find a way to speed up the Irish process. If we proceed case by case through the courts, I won’t be around to enjoy any substantial improvement.
Thanks for your question about my knowledge of British Town and Country Planning? It made me ask myself what do I know about the UK 1948 Act and its development.
I better start by declaring an interest: I’m not a lawyer; I’m a consumer of fresh air and good views. I used to work for The National Trust as employee and consultant (1993-2003).
For starters, the 1948 Act was a social revolution. It set down boundaries for green belt and prevented developers from encroaching into the countryside. It has been one of the most successful pieces of social legislation in 20th century England & Wales. There have been some big campaigns against road building but, for the most part, the Green Belt has been protected.
Within the Green Belt (by which I mean the countryside), there is an enormous network of ancient rights of way, most of which extends through private property and all of which interferes with property owners ability to fence and farm.
The combination of rights of way and the 1948 Act has given UK dwellers unrivalled access to countryside. The countryside there is at least as magnificent as in Ireland.
But, constant vilgilence and negotiation is the order of the day, because, right now, the UK governement is trying to increase housebuilding out into the Green Belt.
There is also the development of National Parks to consider: the Lake District, The Peak District, Pembrokeshire… and so on. Landowners within National Parks have obligations imposed on them and I’d like to know more about national parks in Ireland.
Also the long distance walks: I’ve just come from living under the start of the Cotswold Way which runs from Bath to Oxford. I used to be able to walk out on to the Way from Bath and walk along a well-maintained walk for as long as I liked.
At risk of sounding like a broken record, I keep coming back to the simple experience of wanting to go for a Sunday walk or a weekend hike in Ireland. Great walks may abound but, mile for mile, Ireland is impoverished, and will remain so until we do something about it.
I wrote an email to the Green Party spokesperson on the environment yesterday. But their web site shows almost nothing about access to the countryside.
Last year, the Green Party tabled a Bill on protecting rights of way as part of local development plans: http://www.greenparty.ie/en/content/download/443/2262/file/Planning and Development (Amendment) (No 2) Bill 2004.pdf
Paul,
And you walked away from all that. It was the 1947 Act, by the way.
http://www.keepirelandopen.org/ is a useful resource.
Frank,
For all I know you may mean well. But I haven’t got time for games. My point about there being excellent access to countryside in UK was made in order to encourage people in Ireland to compare and contrast, and hopefully consider this in the run up to the next election. I find your remark “And you walked away from all that” to be both clever and nasty because it has the tone of a sneer about it. Coming after your earlier remark about me “falling into the common habit …”, I’ve had enough of your view for my own good.
* The Town and Country Planning Act 1947. (Source Wikipedia)
The 1947 Act in effect nationalised the right to develop land, requiring all proposals, excepting a small number of specific exclusions, to secure planning permission from their local authority (although provision exists to appeal against refusal).
The Act - the essential nature of which is unchanged - required local authorities to develop Local Plans or Unitary Development Plans to outline what kind of development would be permitted where and to mark special areas on Local Plan Maps. It did not introduce a formal system of zoning as used in the USA. Counties were expected to develop Structure Plans which set broad targets for the wider area. Structure Plans were always problematic and were often in the process of being replaced by the time they were formally adopted.
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Green Belt was introduced in 1955
I was curious to know what reasoning, if any, informed by what factual knowledge, was driving you exhortation to the Irish people to take a jolly good lesson from the British example. What you say we in Ireland ’should’ do has indeed a very ‘norm’ative ring to it.
My knowledeg of planning, which I studied in the UK to post-graduate level, and which I have practised in Ireland for several years, begins with the recognition that eash country’s planning policies and systems develop out of that particular country’s geographym history, cultural and economic circumstances. As I stated earlier, our Planning Acts, completely reformed in 2000, provide all the legislative powers we need, and the reformed CAP adds to the impetus to develop the leisure potential of the countryside.
Your ageist and totalitarian desire to clear all the farmers out of the countryside so that ghastly cagoule- wearing suburbanites can walk there on a Sunday afternoon is a non-starter. Who’d cut the grass, trim the hedgerows, and keep the Travellers off the land if the farmers don’t do it?
Nationalisation? Go tell it on the mountain, preacher!