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Óglaigh na hÉireann
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Adapted from El Blogador
I have been using the blogosphere in recent months to highlight the treacherous pretence being perpetuated by the provos that the IRA is the army of Ireland. It isn’t- the Irish Defence Forces of the legally constituted Republic of Ireland represent the only Irish Army- they are the only Óglaigh na hÉireann, and anything else which poses thus is illegal.
Just like Fianna Fáil before them, Sinn Féin has entered the Dáil, thus presumably recognising the legitimacy of the Irish state. They have also apparently agreed to adhere to the Good Friday Agreement- again this recognises the current Dáil Éireann as the Government of Ireland. So if this is the case, why do they continue to claim that the IRA is the Army of Ireland and that it, rather than the Irish Defence Forces, represents the continuum of those who fought in the Anglo-Irish War? Along with Republican Sinn Féin, they are the only organisation which continues to argue this point. The rest of Ireland, including Fianna Fáil, is living in the real world.
The only explanation is that they don’t actually recognise the will of the people of Ireland north and south, and refuse to accept that the democratically constituted Government of Ireland and its army is the legitimate legislator and defender of Ireland. In this case, the provisional movement is anti-democratic, anti-Agreement, is ignoring the wishes of the people of Ireland, and is thus an enemy of an Phoblacht na hÉireann.
I see that Irish Defence Minister (and by that I mean the REAL defence minister, as opposed to some halfwit in a balaclava speaking on behalf of the Irish Republican ‘Army’) Willie O’Dea has been taking a similar view to myself. The Minister has thrice written to Gerry Adams to point out that, by law, the Irish Defence Forces are the only legitimate army, and they alone can call themselves Óglaigh na hÉireann.
Adams failed to make a response, as did the provo leader in the Dáil. A bit of manners wouldn’t go amiss from these ‘statesmen’. Or is it the fact that they cannot answer the Minister’s accusations that has caused them to stick their heads in the sand? Their contempt for the state it tangible, and it kicks dirt in the faces of the brave soldiers of Ireland working across the world in peacekeeping roles. To equate thugs wielding armalites with the soldiers of the Irish Army is a national scandal, and the electorate of the 26 counties must be made aware that a vote for Sinn Féin is a vote against Ireland and its armed forces.
“To equate thugs wielding armalites with the soldiers of the Irish Army is a national scandal”
Nobody’s equating them. Who I consider to be Óglaigh na hÉireann is a matter for me. It is a matter of opinion, not fact.
El B,
Are you telling us that you know an unlawful army is active in Ireland?
It was my firm belief that all the official reports and assessments that have been made since late July 2005 for the two governments which have jurisdiction in Ireland have formed the opposite view, and both those governments have accepted what they’ve been told by experts charged with making those assessments.
No JG- it is a matter of fact. The legally constituted Government of Ireland’s regular army is Óglaigh na hÉireann. The IRA is a banned organisation under the law of that government, and as such is an illegal organisation- not a legitimate army. They do not adhere to the rules of warfare, are not answerable to any government, and do not represent any country. If they claim to be the army of Ireland, they are committing treason.
Frank- have the IRA gone away? No. Do the Army Council, who SF believe is the government of Ireland gone? No. Do SF still celebrate this ‘army’ and describe it as ‘undefeated’? Yes.
Elmat.. ok then, if you say so!
The Irish Defense Forces only defend the twenty-six counties and are thus not the army of the Irish Nation which the title Óglaigh na hÉireann would suggest. Peacekeeping overseas, rightly a source of pride for Irish people, does nothing to change the fact that the IDF have shamefully stood by and watched pogroms take place in the six counties against their own.
JD: “IDF have shamefully stood by and watched pogroms take place in the six counties against their own.”
What is more shameful- that, or since the start of the troubles having killed more Catholics than the UDA. Or the UVF. Or the British Army. Or the RUC. Because that’s the unenviable record of the IRA. Plus, is it more shameful than having murdered members of Ireland police force? Strange definition of ‘defenders’ when they killed more of their ‘own people’ than those against whom they purport to be protecting said people.
El,
I notice you didn’t answer my question.
Neither did you answer mine. If you read through your post you’ll notice you’re replying to all sorts of things that I didn’t say. Whataboutery replaces debate, tut tut!
el
Readers can go back over the eschanges and see that you evaded my question but shot off a few of your own which you also answered. If you care to respond to my original requestfor clarification of the meaning of your post I might then give you my opinion on the questions you subsequently put to me.
The other thing about ‘whata*******’ ? You’re not on United Irelander now. We’re grown-ups here
Frank-
“Are you telling us that you know an unlawful army is active in Ireland?”
Yes. They have decommissioned and as far as the IMC is concerned (although they do not recognise its remit) they are not engaged in violence. However, as an organisation they still exist, and their military council is still regarded by those who subscribe to their view as being the legitimate government of Ireland (hence their belief that their actions now or in the past cannot be ‘crimes’). Also, by virtue of the fact that the provisional movement celebrates the activities of this ‘army’, they continue to undermine the legitimate army of Ireland.
While the IRA exists as an organisation, and while the provisional movement perpetuates the myth that it is the legitimate army of Ireland, then the issue will remian relevant, regardless of whether said organisation is militarily active.
JG- you did not pose a question, you made a statement.
El,
I’m happy with that answer.
You responded not to what was in my posts but what you thought was behind them.
“Strange definition of ‘defenders’ when they killed more of their ‘own people’”
I didn’t refer to the IRA as defenders as you strongly suggest. And as a matter of fact you’re completely and utterly wrong in what you say as the CAIN figures confirm.
Frank, I think it was a fair comment. Instead of taking up the point I made he’s agrument was “what about these other injustices…”
JG-
“And as a matter of fact you’re completely and utterly wrong in what you say as the CAIN figures confirm.”
Em, no I’m not. Do your homework. The IRA killed 340 Catholics. The UDA killed 184. The UVF killed 278. The British Army killed 254. The RUC killed 44. Not that it should matter what religion the victims are, but I think it highlights how the belief that the IRA somehow protected ‘its’ people as an army is ridiculous. They were nothing but indiscriminate murderers who did more harm to their own community than any other single armed group, and have no more right to call themselves Ó na hÉ than the Real IRA or Continuity IRA, both of whom claim similar status on the same basis that the IRA does.
JG,
Some confusion on my part. Though I don’t like the ‘whata—’ word, which you used, my comment was aimed at the use of ‘what—’, the practice, by El.
The only explanation is that they don’t actually recognise the will of the people of Ireland north and south, and refuse to accept that the democratically constituted Government of Ireland and its army is the legitimate legislator and defender of Ireland. In this case, the provisional movement is anti-democratic, anti-Agreement, is ignoring the wishes of the people of Ireland, and is thus an enemy of an Phoblacht na hÉireann.
This is one of the more unsavoury legacies of the 1916 rising. The 1916 rebels rejected constitutional politics in favour of revolution. The democratic will of the people was subordinated to the ideal of The Republic (whether they were right or wrong is a separate issue, we are where we are). The anti-Treaty side in the Civil War had the same idea and it has been a core part of militant republicanism ever since, an idea that various parties have abandoned for pragmatic reasons over the years (e.g. Sinn Fein’s conversion into Fianna Fáil in 1926, Provisional Sinn Féin’s signing of the GFA in 1998).
It’s something that should - but most likely won’t - be examined as part of the 1916 anniversary celebrations.
Oh right Frank, grand. I’m not a big fan of the word myself so I use it sparingly!
Any man who carried an IRA murderer’s coffin should now crawl away and try to live quietly with his shame.
El,
Straighten me out please.
You wrote that the IRA ‘killed more of their ‘own people’ than those against whom they purport to be protecting said people’.
But the figures you quote seem to me to tell a different story, and I know how much people in Northern ireland like their stories. south of the border, we like our stories to make sense.
You wrote ‘The IRA killed 340 Catholics. The UDA killed 184. The UVF killed 278. The British Army killed 254. The RUC killed 44′.
184 278 254 44=760, which is more than double the number of catholics you say were killed by the IRA.
Can you clarify please.
Frank,
If you want a story to make sense, then read it in the full context of what I said, rather than sleighting people who happen to live in the north of the island.
In the post that I quoted the figures, I also said:
“They were nothing but indiscriminate murderers who did more harm to their own community than any other single armed group.”
Note the phrase “than any other single armed group” Clear enough now?
Factitious
What?
Factitious = artificial, got up.
You responded previously to JG’s “And as a matter of fact you’re completely and utterly wrong in what you say as the CAIN figures confirm.”
By writing
‘Em, no I’m not. Do your homework. The IRA killed 340 Catholics. The UDA killed 184. The UVF killed 278. The British Army killed 254. The RUC killed 44.’
I have now busted you up on your false assertion that JG was wrong, and have used my powers of addition to support my case.
to which you responded
‘If you want a story to make sense, then read it in the full context’.
You argued to JG that the facts were the total reverse of what they in fact are, and substitute your opinion that the IRA “were nothing but indiscriminate murderers who did more harm to their own community than any other single armed group.”
That is factitious debating, mixing up fact and opinion, hoping no-one notices, arguing that the facts are the opposite of what they are. It is the Alice In Wonderland tactic of wanting words to mean whatever you want them to mean.
Right, whatever. Fact- IRA killed more Cathlolics than any other single organisation, ergo they did more harm to their own community than any other armed group. I can’t imagine any other worse form of harm than killing someone. Get back to drinking your green-dyed Guinness and shouting ‘Up the RA’ unless you’re prepared to engage in logical debate.
El
I’m prepared to engage in logical debate with anyone who’s able to do logical debate. That seems to exclude you.
For the record, I’m a constitutional republican, I’m a member of Fianna Fáil, and I drink Beamish not Guinness
What’s your politics and cultural affilliations?
“Republican” in this poor, patriot infested island has come to mean nothing other than an admiration for a century of unnecessary killing.
well now “Frank Neary” seems u think ur a constitutional Republican, wel;l now can i just have a statement telling me what the f**k ur party is doing to achieve an “Irish republic” witch would in clude the integration of the occupied 6 counties. Is that the same Fianna Fail that organisised the killings of numerous Republicans from the 1930’s onwards the same Fianna fail that RELIED on the IRA to dispearse the blue shirts in the 30’s, what is it fianna fail translates as is it soliders of destiny or ireland man some soliders use are. oh and the same fianna fail that rejected seats for representation of ppl in the north well well well, “Fianna Failures”
to all the guys who favor the IRA,ye might not know this but the IRA in fact sold out to the Nazis during ww2 so any ss officer or anyone like that that was marked for death and things like that were sent here under the protection of the IRA all the while Irish men were dieing while fighting with the allies.now you go to the years before that when the IRA were fighting the brits for Ireland well then i agree they were the Irish army but you have to face the facts in recent years they have become crooks and nothing more