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When trust becomes subjective
Read more about: Coalition, Economy, Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, Labour Party, Sinn Féin
Some of you may remember how Vincent Jackson became Dublin’s unexpected Lord Mayor back in June of last year - for those of you who don’t, here’s the story:
Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin pulled off a coup thanks to a stoke of luck on Dublin City Council tonight with the election of Independent Vincent Jackson to the position of Lord Mayor.
Fine Gael, Labour and the Greens entered into a pact after the local elections in 2004 to rotate the position, but tonight were shocked to be outvoted by an alliance of Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin getting behind Cllr Jackson from Ballyfermot.
Mr Jackson was elected after he was tied on 26 votes with Paddy Bourke of Labour, who was expected succeed Fine Gael’s Catherine Byrne. Mr Jackson secured the mayoralty after his name was drawn from a hat.
As any party would in such an outcome, Fine Gael took whatever consolation they could find - in this case it was by using the “A vote for Fianna Fail is a vote for Sinn Fein” stick they love to swing around wherever possible.
From the same story:
Fine Gael group leader Gerry Breen said the pact demonstrates that Fianna Fáil “cannot be trusted when it comes to coalition with Sinn Féin”.
Fair enough - so why aren’t Fine Gael making the same kind of noise in light of their latest defeat at Dublin City Council, where Labour united with Sinn Fein to force through the living wage motion which Fine Gael oppose?
Fine Gael, like the Progressive Democrats, like to remind people how anti-Sinn Fein they are in an attempt to secure their votes based on fear - but if they’re ready to bash anyone who agrees with Sinn Fein at Council level up, they should really be consistent enough to take a swing at Labour too, Mullingar Accord or not.
Adam there wasn’t a roll call for that vote so you can’t be saying the Fine Gael as party voted for or against. Also, it was a Labour vote so that would suggest that SF agreed with Labour rather than Labour agreeing with SF.
And the lose of the Mayoralty by the Democratic Alliance is down to cllr Niamh Cosgrave who stood for FG but has since reneged her membership of the party and the council group for reasons of her own. Now there is case of subjective trust if ever I heard of one.
Adam there wasn’t a roll call for that vote so you can’t be saying the Fine Gael as party voted for or against. Also, it was a Labour vote so that would suggest that SF agreed with Labour rather than Labour agreeing with SF.
As far as I’m aware the “heated debate” that I’ve seen reported here and elsewhere came as a result of Fine Gael’s objections to the idea - I doubt they debated against it and then voted for it, do you?
And while I can’t comment on the back-room negotiations Labour initiated as part of this policy, I’d be surprised if they just took a punt at getting this passed in a council that has FG opposed and FF mute on the issue. To me this is more than one party happening to agree with the other - and it also raises questions about the so-called Democratic Alliance and the general FG/Labour pact.
And the lose of the Mayoralty by the Democratic Alliance is down to cllr Niamh Cosgrave who stood for FG but has since reneged her membership of the party and the council group for reasons of her own. Now there is case of subjective trust if ever I heard of one.
Firstly, your use of the words “reneged her membership” are to me inaccurate as she did not do this. Secondly, her actions following her loss of the whip in 2005 are not a case of subjective trust, but do raise questions of her personal political beliefs in spite of previous disputes… but hey, since when is this post about FG’s failure to get its councillors to vote with them, or even turn up?
Given the terrible state of the City Council agenda, the motion had been up since July so there’s no doubt that there were discussions between different councillors of different parties. As to whether there was a formal pact of agreement on the motion is not the issue, there was a clear like-mindedness.
From the news reports (e.g. the Evening Herald), the first hand accounts of the meeting and a statement issued by Cllr. Bill Tormey afterwards attacking the City Council decision, it is reasonable to conclude that FG opposed the motion. That FF abastained only showed their political nous - they probably would have been very hesitant but decided to let it go to committee to give them space to decide on the issue (or decide on a better way than FG to oppose it).
All said, the point here is that Labour, specifically Cllr. Byrne, gave a lead on an important issue. And those in agreement - Sinn Fein and progressive independents - supported it. That’s worthy of some consideration when we come to more long-term thinking about how progressives can unite to defeat more conservative opposition.
I think you’re ascribing too much significance to the way parties vote on motions to the City Council. There’s hardly ever a party whip imposed and in general Councillors are free to vote with their consciences or in line with local concerns. The exceptions are usually the election of the Lord Mayor and the passing of the annual budget.
The City Council passes several motions at each meeting and if you look at the voting patterns you’ll probably find all sorts of strange alliances. The City Council is (thankfully) not like the Dáil, where the merits of a proposal are not as important as maintaining the party line.
“And the lose of the Mayoralty by the Democratic Alliance is down to cllr Niamh Cosgrave who stood for FG but has since reneged her membership of the party and the council group for reasons of her own. Now there is case of subjective trust if ever I heard of one.
Firstly, your use of the words “reneged her membership” are to me inaccurate as she did not do this. Secondly, her actions following her loss of the whip in 2005 are not a case of subjective trust, but do raise questions of her personal political beliefs in spite of previous disputes… but hey, since when is this post about FG’s failure to get its councillors to vote with them, or even turn up?”
She lost the whip when she refused to turn up for a vote on the Mayoralty, she is no longer a member of the FG party not to mind having the FG whip in council chamber. The following year she voted against the FG supported nominee for Mayor. That sounds like reneging to me.
As for this vote, the fact that SF and Labour members happened to vote in the same way on a issue that was brought up by Labour is hardly frontpage news. That FF and SF cooperated to elect someone as mayor is a bit more coordinated.
She lost the whip when she refused to turn up for a vote on the Mayoralty, she is no longer a member of the FG party not to mind having the FG whip in council chamber. The following year she voted against the FG supported nominee for Mayor. That sounds like reneging to me.
She reneged on taking a vote, not on keeping her membership… while I’m sure she expected some kind of punishment for not being there, I’m pretty sure her plan was not to go AWOL with the aim of being kicked out of the group.
Her voting for the FF Mayoral candidate the next year is another issue - it’s not a matter of trust, it’s a matter of her political consistency.
As for this vote, the fact that SF and Labour members happened to vote in the same way on a issue that was brought up by Labour is hardly frontpage news. That FF and SF cooperated to elect someone as mayor is a bit more coordinated.
Going by the frontpages it appears that others agree with you, as do I… The point I’m making is that FG are turning a blind eye to their bed-fellow’s work with Sinn Fein, while at the same time using it as a stick to beat FF with…
And again, I’d be very shocked if there was no level of inter-party co-ordination behind the sf/lab vote
Niamh Cosgrave is no longer a member of FG, and that is by her choice. She has not paid membership in a number of years. Fact is I think she has been poor rep for a number of years. But that is an argument for another day.
As for the vote itself, FG will use everything and anything as a stick to beat FF with. That is the nature of electoral politics.
As for the vote itself, FG will use everything and anything as a stick to beat FF with. That is the nature of electoral politics.
Oh, I know - I’m just pointing out that this type of Realpolitik can open a party to contradictions and inconsistencies, as I believe the above example illustrates.
Oh, I know - I’m just pointing out that this type of Realpolitik can open a party to contradictions and inconsistencies, as I believe the above example illustrates.
It isn’t - Fine Gael and Labour disagreed on this idea, that is possibly a story. The idea that Fine Gael should critisce Labour because their motion happened to get the support of Sinn Fein is a bit daft.